Michael D. O'Brien, bonjour !
Nous sommes heureux de vous recevoir dans les locaux de L'Homme Nouveau,
pour cette émission : "À la page".
Vous êtes connus en France pour vos différents livres qui ont été traduits,
je pense au Père Elijah, je pense également à La librairie Sophia,
ou encore votre dernier livre dont nous allons parler aujourd'hui, Le journal de la peste, chez Salvator.
Vous étiez d'abord peintre, comment vous êtes-vous retrouvé peintre, et auteur à succès ?
Merci beaucoup, c'est un grand plaisir d'être à Paris, en France.
Je suis en effet, écrivain et peintre.
Je suis écrivain depuis au moins 50 ans,
je me souviens avoir écrit mon premier roman à 12 ans,
il faisait pas moins de 10 pages, et je me souviens que le résultat était brillant !
J'étais sûrement le seul à le penser, mais c'était un signe avant coureur !
Je ne le savais pas encore quand j'étais encore enfant,
j'ai passé la plus grande partie de ma vie d'homme adulte comme peintre d'art religieux, chrétien.
Il y a 40 ans,
alors que je peignais, une histoire particulièrement forte a germé dans mon imagination,
elle revenait sans cesse et ne voulait pas me quitter, je l'ai d'abord prise pour une distraction,
je l'ai repoussé mois après mois, et je me suis finalement dit : je vais la coucher sur le papier
et elle va sortir de mon esprit, afin que je puisse me reconcentrer sur ce que je peignais.
Ça a été le premier vrai roman que j'ai écrit, intitulé : A cry of stone.
Entre l'écriture de ce premier roman et la publication de mon premier livre,
il s'est passé presque 20 ans.
20 ans de lettres de refus des éditeurs...
Le thème qui revenait à chaque fois comme motivation au rejet de mes manuscrits était :
C'est une histoire très intéressante, dans un très bon style, c'est bien écrit...
Cependant... vous devez comprendre que les lecteurs ne sont pas vraiment intéressés par votre vision du monde,
(comprendre : votre vision catholique)
et souvent ils me disaient : si vous êtes prêts à réécrire le livre,
en enlevant le catholicisme, ou en le transformant en ce qu'ils appelaient :
"une vision plus réaliste du catholicisme"
dit autrement, en corrompant le message catholique...
Ils disaient alors qu'ils seraient très heureux de publier mon livre.
J'ai bien sûr que ce serait une trahison, une trahison de la Vérité, mais aussi une trahison de l'art.
Je n'ai donc pas été publié pendant deux décennies, jusqu'à 'un coup de pouce de la providence.
Un éditeur catholique américain m'a demandé si j'avais un livre, un manuscrit,
ce fût le début d'une avalanche de publications...
Il y a maintenant 12 romans publiés en anglais, 10 d'entre eux ont été traduits en français.
Nous vous retrouvons donc pour parler de votre dernier livre : Le journal de la peste,
un livre qui narre la fuite d'un journaliste, traqué par le système, l'état,
on y lit comme une trace de "1984", d'Orwell, avez-vous essayé d'actualiser ce livre pour notre temps ?
Oui, dans un certain sens, Le journal de la peste est une dystopie, dans ce sens cela se rapproche d'Orwell,
mais peut-être se rapproche-t-il plus d'Huxley et Le meilleur des mondes,
ou alors c'est une combinaison d'Orwell et Huxley,
mais adapté à notre siècle et à notre situation sociale et politique.
Le sujet est poussé plus loin, de nombreuses questions sont soulevées
à propos de la nature de la société occidentale.
Comment nous vivons au milieu d'un nouveau genre de totalitarisme,
avec une révolution sociale qui nous est imposée,
une révolution sociale qui frappe au coeur même de l'identité de la personne humaine.
Qu'est-ce que l'homme ? Quelles sont ses valeurs ?
A-t-il des valeurs au-delà de celles que l'État et la société lui accordent ?
Des hommes sont-ils moins humains que d'autres ? (Le concept Orwellien)
Des humains sont-ils moins égaux que les autres ? (cf La ferme des animaux)
En conséquence de quoi on peut jeter certains humains :
Les enfants in utero, les infirmes, les vieillards, les dépressifs,
tous ceux qui ont perdu espoir pour leurs vies...
L'État va vous tuer, mais vous tuer de façon hygiénique, avec une seringue stérilisée,
en vous parlant d'une voix suave.
La question à laquelle mes livres essayent de répondre, pas tous, mais mes dystopies, est :
Sommes-nous ans la plus dangereuse forme de totalitarisme de notre époque ?
Parce qu'il n'apparaît pas exactement pour ce qu'il est...
C'est un totalitarisme agréable.
Oui c'est un totalitarisme doux, mais mortel.
Votre livre parle beaucoup d'éducation, la façon dont le journaliste, votre principal personnage,
éduque ses enfants, la façon dont l'État, par le biais de l'école, essaye d'éduquer les enfants aussi,
les parents doivent-ils se méfier de l'école et de la façon dont elle s'occupe des enfants ?
Oui, je pense que les parents doivent se méfier de toutes les formes d'éducation.
ils doivent être conscients que selon l'enseignement de l'Église,
nous les parents, sommes les premiers éducateurs de nos familles,
il en découle que quel que soit le système éducatif, public, catholique,
il doit prendre en compte les droits de la famille, les droits des parents et les exigences d'une éducation catholique.
c'est à dire la transmission de la Vérité sur la Foi, sur l'homme.
Dans la majeure partie de l'occident, nous vivons dans un système qui dispense un message très différent.
L'Etat est devenu dans un certain sens, plus une contrainte qu'un garant des lois.
L'État s'est approprié nos enfants.
Et nous permettons au système de s'occuper de nos enfants la journée.
Il me semble que nous avons créé une société dans laquelle les parents doivent justifier
leur droit d'exercer une autorité parentale à l'État, plutôt que l'inverse.
L'État devrait être au service de la famille,
une société saine sait que sa vie et son futur dépend de la bonne santé de la famille.
Et pour qu'une famille soit pleinement accomplie, elle doit vivre selon l'enseignement du Christ,
si elle souhaite perdurer.
C'est la fuite de votre personnage, c'est pendant sa fuite qu'il arrive à se convertir,
est-ce notre société contemporaine qui est un obstacle à l'évangélisation ?
Je pense qu'elle l'est dans la mesure où elle ne respecte pas les droits de la famille et des personnes.
Mais je crois qu'une distinction doit-être faite entre une société en bonne santé, et
et une manière saine de vivre chrétiennement.
Nous devons être considérés équitablement, mais pas seulement en terme de liberté,
la Liberté est importante, aussi en terme de responsabilités.
Nous avons des responsabilités qui doivent être exercées en lien avec l'exercice de la liberté.
Comme individus, comme familles, comme sociétés, comme nations...
Ma préoccupation, dans certains de mes écrits, est de montrer une nouvelle forme de totalitarisme,
qui parle sans interruptions de liberté, tout en enlevant doucement
la responsabilité des individus, des familles...
Il y a beaucoup d'avantages, mais cela a un coût terrible sur le long terme.
has a terrible cost in the long run one of one of the ominous signs in modern
societies in the West modern nations is the indoctrination of the the imposition
of social engineering we can call it and also invading the rights of families to
decide what their children's religious and moral formation will be this is a
violation of freedom this is a violation of responsibility it's it's a very
dangerous move we think of ourselves as a humanist civilization the Democratic
West but as I said before it's in such a milieu that the most dangerous form of
totalitarianism can emerge but it does it gradually there are no concentration
camps there are no piles of burning books in the street there are no
extermination squads in the streets but the taking of innocent life takes occurs
now in hygienic hospitals clinics the burning of books is done with exquisite
manners by simply removing truth from libraries from the education system and
replacing it with a new narrative a new ideology and this is what we must
recognize that we are in the midst we are immersed in a relentless social
revolution we take our children's minds hearts and souls will take all of us and
reshape us reshape us according to a tragically stunted concept of man sir
compared to the famous es una pelea de vida medium company to form a ministry
Pascal the Palais realistic is an asura list on the way they are devoted to her
ta tusky to share and education poor quality system
resulted executive secured who did not see it more mercy totally like who who
let it equ win nothing it is certainly symptomatic of a larger
cultural cultural war I think in terms of the New Evangelization the question
you raised we must recognize that culture is one of the primary fronts in
the struggle for the redefinition of man for the definition of the value of man
we have been losing most of our battles in the last century I would say
primarily through culture the power of the new electronic culture the new media
literature film especially television all all the avenues in which man
expresses his concept of himself his values reflecting back to ourselves who
we are at the same time media also culture also influences how we think
about reality of life about love about
whether there is only a material existence for man or whether there is a
metaphysical reality whether there is an eternity all these questions are
gradually being slowly removed like removing oxygen from the atmosphere
you don't realize that first what's happening it becomes harder and harder
to breathe now that's a long preamble a
healthy society let us say a truly pluralistic society a truly
multicultural society would have plenty of room
for the Christian voice in the arts to enter the mainstream of culture it would
be one of many voices yes but we would be present be there would be a light in
the Agora why then have we been almost every writer Catholic writer and artist
why are we walled into a ghetto why has this happened there are many reasons
antic but one dimension of that is the spiritual war the adversary of mankind
the enemy of mankind desires to remove any reference in a 10-1 yards any
witness to the reality of Jesus Christ as as a living presence and in terms of
salvation history that he is he will return and he may even be near I believe
he is near is coming so in the strategies of the war strategy of hell
the Christian voice must be silenced it must be rendered of no importance to
man it must be presented in culture as a dying mythology and an artifact our
churches are beautiful magnificent artifacts of an era beyond which we have
evolved the brave new man in his brave new world no longer needs Christ this is
the concept the reality is that Jesus Christ is alive yes
he's totally alive he is who he says he is the Gospels our reality that is
reality and he is coming and perhaps we will see him face to face
but in the interim there is a struggle a terrible struggle with the forces of
darkness so in my in my novels and also my nonfiction I asked the question I
asked the question itself basically the questions of the Gospel of Matthew and
Luke and also the book of Revelation are we awake
are we Catholic people awake and if the times which the prophets and our Lord
Jesus himself foretold would come if those times are our times we don't know
for sure but if they are our times are we are we
prepared our hearts our souls prepared this is a question these questions must
be asked by every generation every generation of those who seek to follow
the Lord Jesus he wants us in the Gospels that that precise precisely that
generation which does not recognize the signs of the times that generation which
is not awake that is when the maximum crisis will occur remember Lot's wife we
see says you don't do the neutral response every TCC Oklahoma the PAL that
I do read you kissed it it is our responsibility each each in our way each
in our own vocation our place in the world we can bear witness to him at the
very least with our lives you know it's not always a matter of
speaking about there will be moments when we must be the truth or writing it
it must be a witness of lives we are a word we are the living
word if we are in Jesus Christ yes so we must be a presence in the
world of love and truth but not not in the modern sense of compartmentalizing
love and truth but Caritas and Veritas integrated as to a single unified force
for transformation love and truth as one thing so that I believe is the direction
we must go not not in the direction of fear but a kind of deep realism deep
realism founded on hope on confidence
Stanny old okay hey samba yet till you do bless the city's to our poor poor for
this prime impurity spot for the sparrows to the dark book yes this is if
you really look read the last chapters any that the central character it's very
much a modern man wrestling with despair on one side and rage on the other but
you see he is an independent man he's a brave man he's a hero in a way but he is
a hero on his own terms with his own strength so the story of the crisis of
his life and that of his children is a passage from the autonomous hero to a
true heroism in Christ what we must remember is that courage courage is a
virtue of the natural man it's a it's part of our nature when we are being
good at being human but courage is not enough in the face of
radical evil courage and hope and grace to give us hope so in dark times when
everything is put to the test that is the time when we may be given an
opportunity to grow in hope by asking our Father in Heaven for this particular
grace if but it is a supernatural gift it's not a natural gift hope is not
optimism hope is certainly not pessimism but but it's not optimism either this is
don't worry be happy it's okay nothing bad will happen or if
we have problems in the modern age we've always had problems yes but in my books
I ask questions such as what is the nature of the problems of our times is
there something distinctive is there a distinctive apocalyptic dimension to
what mankind is facing now I am asking questions I don't have all the answers
but I think in a healthy society a healthy culture these questions would be
alive and vibrant they would be asked didn't be discussed
I don't feel they're being discussed I don't hear them being discussed in the
mainstream of culture I see a tsunami of falsehood in in the mainstream of
culture
so here is a possible mission for Christian art Christian all the arts if
we are to create works of truth and beauty they may not necessarily be
overtly evangelical but if they are true and beautiful if they tell the true
story of man they are bringing their bringing oxygen back into the modern age
they're bringing pure water back into the modern age at least at the very
least they are asking essential questions this does not mean we have to
be didactic but it doesn't mean we have to be authentic and I I believe through
my long experience as an artist that this is possible only if we are praying
and praying constantly and being nourished by the sacraments for me that
is my life that is the source of my life was in jeopardy of HOSA for retrieval
Paradiso jt3 or mean of sake Thomas's tributyl Jose is usually the original so
even the lake the renfa-sama know but to answer you to answer why I will be very
painful it in terms of a financier I would I would rewrite it a little
differently the essential meaning of the work is true and is clear and it
continues to have significance the condition in the world and in the church
is more complex now we are facing or are facing grave problems within the body of
Christ very severe problem
I do not want to comment comment on those because that's not my job
I pray about them I sacrifice for them but if I could say anything I would say
that the call of every single believing Catholic now is to pray for the
purification and the strengthening of the body of Christ of the church in our
times perhaps more than we have ever done so since the first centuries we
must pray for the bride because she is the bride of Christ being prepared for
the bridegroom as always she bleeds from many wounds she has many betrayer
betrayers and scandals but she is the bride and we have to love with a great
love a very deep love and love the charism of Peter of the papacy and pray
that it fulfills its mission in the world pray for the purification but the
church might be a light to the Gentiles in our times a desert us pray and
sacrifice for the bride who posted a vision and a perfect you come here
just shoot on that on purpose you would tell Eve even tragedy Alfonso London a
pest Marisa donor contributions show who was your good personality is what buck
would Massacre Kevin Scallon Vaughn who was it beautifully in
biography my Calabrian ravish TV kiss use a pussy exact Elysee as a tutor how
did it come about it began with Michaels novel father
larger which I read and wrote article about and then the ideas slowly
develop I shouldn't die this is Michael asking questions about his work
and one of my friends had bought some paintings from Michael and therefore had
his email so I we got into contact with email and after a year I came to Canada
prepared with questions and we had one very special weekend in Michael's house
his wife Sheila was away was I think October November still nice whole
weekend where the fire was burning and I was posting questions Michael was
answering and we should say conversation on Catholicism art morality children
there was a fascinating conversation and that conversation continued on distance
but then I came back for doing another round of questions so I was writing more
about this work and then the idea about doing a biography came up it's kind of
evolved through this because Michael Bryant's Canadian publisher wanted him
to write a self autobiography but Michael didn't want that so toxic went
to me and that was a really great thing I would say so for a couple of years
went back and forth the camera doing interviews but also got access to
Michael's alsace not non-published unpublished works including his diary
which was crucial for the for the biography getting you see under the skin
of the author into mind and thinking and also all Michael's
very deep and intense religious life his religious experiences because you have
to understand you if you write if you read Michael's novels you'll sense that
yes it say a rich interior religious life but there's a diary I could see and
I hope I can show it also in the biography that Michael is actually a
mystic oh yes yes it's and I think what one of the great points with that this
is it's the same with this art anyone can in a sense be a Michael Bryan anyone
could do this take this choice and give his life fully to Christ and try to do
art and suffer all the her the pains and do the sacrifices not many are willing
unsurprisingly but I also think that to have a rich interior mystical life is
something that is possible for all Christians you just as Michael just
explained you just need to live a serious Christian life with the help of
the sacraments and if you pray if you pray every day and make prayer and part
of your ordinary work the surprise not something special you do it special
occasion of course sometimes you just you need just to focus on prayer but
when prayer becomes the way you live so to speak then the interior mystical life
develops so it was great it was great for me to see that and also as I'm I'm
also entered to see someone 20 years older
than me did some choices that I didn't do more
radical choices was very inspiring and so it was it was it I think the fruits
the biography is a print of listening to Michael but also a process of
conversation which I hope comes through but even more in the book that was just
published in Canada which where I used our interviews to to show this back and
forth and how this conversation grows and the primary the primary goal with
that book is that is is to address young or John Christian artists that would
like to do something similar to what Michael did between to inspire them it's
not impossible you can do that choice even if even if for some of you cooked
in our school everyone will be going in that direction you could go in that
direction and it will be fulfilling to be a sacrificial life but that's the
only fulfilling life that's that's the only real life so for me for Michael
doing this incredible strong choices living through all the hardships for me
I just harvested fruits and then I tried helping say distributing those fruits
and hopefully hopefully when we're speaking about the church and the
trouble and the crisis of church I I tend to think of the future Church what
we are doing is preparing for the future church that will come there for young
Christians are important John Christian artist the Duke culture
but the the choices that Michael gave in the 1970s and 80s and 90s our
resource for these young people so startled Center not this pocket who
could you're not her emission epidemic make it a real a Kevin Scallon mess
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