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Hello my foodies!!
My friend Pauline and Adriana joigned us today to talk about the second part of a video you already know
"she threw my leather jacket away"
For your information:
Pauline is vegan
Adriana...
will become vegan!
Adriana : Adriana is a bad person...
Lily : Adriana is about to become vegan.. And yes, we will talk about that "bad person" thing.
In this video, we will talk about some arguments i disagree with.
Lily : so Pauline, you wanted to make a comment.
Pauline : yes, i had a question.
Pauline : when you told your story, you said she sent you a really violent and long message
in which her reproaches weren't only about the fact that you wore a leather jacket.
Lily : when we talked about "being a bad person" it reminds me a part of the message she sent me.
Lily : she told me that when she met me at the school,
(i worked in a primary school near Paris)
when i met her, i was eating eggs, so i was ovo-vegetarian
so she told me:
"when... (what was his name? How did we say we will call him?) Thomas!..
so "when Thomas and I met you, you weren't a person we wanted to like."
so, when i read that, i was wondering...
Pauline : there is level here...
Lily : at that time, i was only eating eggs. So, i thougth to myself :
"because i was eating eggs, i wasn't a person that someone would like"
"what is that about?"
i remember having replied something like "i hope that i am not a "good person" now only because i am vegan..."
Lily : What do my dear friends think about a comment like this? to me, words like this are really violent...
Pauline : when i hear that, i am thinking "if we follow her reasoning, there are not a lot of "nice people".
Adriana & Lily : true!
Pauline : so there is not a lot of people to like...
Adriana : it's interesting to value your right to be loved according to what you eat
Adriana : it's a bit difficult to… Pauline : we are talking about an egg!
Pauline : who eats an egg...
Lily : eats a beef! Adriana : wasn't it "who steals an egg steals a beef? Wasn't it?
Lily : yeah, we changed the quotation "who eats an egg, steals a beef"
Adriana : yeah, but even if you eats a beef, i think you have the right to be loved
Adriana : I hope at least, because i eat beef! Lily : yeah, I don't see the link between both.
Lily : i don't see the link between the both, that's why i thought the argument was strange.
She also made another comment. For my birthday, i went to see a designer for him to make me a dress.
So she told me "you call yourselves vegan while you... huuum...
what was the term she used?... "you call yourselves "vegan" while you bought yourselves a dress for a night
instead of buying you a jacket with another fabric"
Pauline did not understand the meaning of the comment, so i'm gonna explain :
if i am vegan,
i musn't wear leather "end of the story".
She made another comment, but it was linked to this one. It also means
"You dared to spend a lot of money in a dress just for ONE night
instead of thinking about animals well-being and not to wear leather and buy yourselves a jacket with another fabric."
In other words : if you have money, your priority, is to do everything that you can, not to wear leather
It was her idea.
"but you'd rather making you a dress ONLY for a birthday party"
That's what she meant.
Pauline : i still don't understand.
Adriana : same.
Pauline : it's still not logic. There is no logic anyway so...
Adriana : that's true. I don't understand the logic in her mindset.
Adriana : but from my memory , there was also a problem with waste
Adriana : The question was "what is being vegan?"
Adriana : i understood from the first vegans i met "we don't consume animal product"
Adriana : the reason why i started to connect with you, even if i wasn't vegan
was the definition you gave me. So :
" a political ideology which brings someone to limit as much as possible his/her
impact on exploitation. On animal exploitation, but also on all exploitations linked to capitalism.
Adriana : so, if our aim is to decrease exploitation, we will not participate to the exploitation of waste.
To me, this exploitation is worse than the exploitation for consumption
At least, for this one, there is a need. Even if this need is not well indentified,
we all need to eat but i agree with the fact that now we have bad eating habits
But at least, this animal is suffering to feed a child who is happy to enjoy his burger at McDonalds for 5minutes.
Even if it's "bad".
but when we think "i am going to take the burger or the leather jacket and throw them away"
all the suffering which happened before was made to end in the garbage.
lily : for nothing Adriana : to me, it also a part of this horrible system of exploitation,
System which is mostly fed by waste.
We are over consuming and over producing because in a lot of things it's like "put this expiry date here!" and it's thrown away
Lily : now that you said that, she asked me to talk with Thomas, so that's what i did.
Lily : when i talked with Thomas who is more open minded even if he doesn't agree with everything,
we tackled the waste issue. But he couldn't understand what i was saying.
So i told him : here is how i see "my" veganism
I try as much as possible to limit my consumption, but i am not in favor of waste.
An exemple : weeks ago, i went to work and reached for some biscuits in the local storage.
(i like to eat speculoos from time to time)
in the local storage, i found speculoos in individual packets, but from another brand, i took it without thinking.
so, i opened the plastic and i see milk chocolate on the sepculoos
I was really upset.
The first thing i did was to throw the speculoos in the garbage.
Because it was still early in the morning, there was nothing except the speculoos i put in the bin.
Then i opened my computer but i kept thinking about what just happened.
I thought "you just threw food away!!"
I took the speculoos from the bin and i put it on my table.
I thought "you shouldn't waste food. The plastic is already open. You will eat it."
Then i looked at the speculoos and i thought "oh no, you're NOT gonna eat that!"
I remembered that my little sister wasn't vegan, so i thought
"ok, put it in your bag, give it to Isis when you be home and it won't be wasted."
When i told this story to Thomas, he replied that he couldn't understand this behaviour.
To him, it meant "i can't do that for those reasons, but you, you can"
This reasoning is not in the line of their (Nathalie and him).
He told me that when they started to be vegans, we sometimes made mistakes when buying products
and we'd rather throwing thing away instead of giving it to people who can eat them.
"So, when you do that with your sister, you are supporting animal suffering"
I replied to him that i wasn't. I did not buy it on purpose.
I came to open something I don't want to eat, if I throw it away, because ok it's milk chocolate so it's made out of cow milk,
it won't change the fact that the cow was already milked.
It's not like "I can eat my piece of meat cause the animal is already dead"
It wasn't on purpose. It's an accident.
As i am in the mindset "it's an accident", instead of throwing, and then you can say that it was REALLY for nothing,
I will give it to my sister who is not vegan
If someday she is interested by veganism, she will be vegan
but she will never be interested by veganism because i would have forced it into her!
Adriana : what i want to say when i hear you saying "i am going to give the speculoos to someone who will eat it"
I have the feeling that it's more like a support in the acceptance of diversity
more than "acceptance", "optimisation" of diversity.
because in this case, what was an accident for you, you turn it into something enjoyable for someone else.
instead of thinking "i am turning an accident into support of waste"
that's how i interpret it, and it reminds me of the idea of "veganism and one-track thinking"
Lily : yeah, that's also a problem Adriana : yeah, that story made me think about that
Adriana : that's why i can be close to you. It's really because of this...
wow, i was about to use that word people often use, "tolerance"
i don't really like using this word, to me, it means that what the person has done is basically unbearable
but we are enough nice to forgive.
It's more like the idea of celebration of diversity.
I don't know if i will be vegan someday,
but i know that during all my life...
Adriana : we are not all made to be vegan Lily : i agree.
Adriana : they are people who can't be vegan because of their metabolism.
That's why i always think about human diversity, i think, it is there for a purpose.
Having beliefs is important.
It's important that people do different things
I'm really happy to be able to connect with people like you who open my mind on a part that i did not explore yet.
It's important to remind that the field of the truth and the field of things are sooo big,
that if we close ourselves in only one way of thinking
without giving space to other way of doing things, other paces,
we close off avenues because we don't know what will happen tomorrow.
We don't know in which situation we will be tomorrow.
As a non vegan, maybe tomorrow i will have to live without animal products,
even if it's not my decision, i will be happy to have a friend with whom i would say :
"i am missing this, how have you done when you became vegan?"
a contrario, we don't know what will happen tomorrow, maybe you will be in a situation in which you won't be able to afford it.
The day you would have, for a reason or another, no other choice but eating animal products,
i have a friend who understand the struggle where i am, who understand that i am doing a step "back"
and who is there to support me.
According to me, this is the most important when we have strong beliefs.
This idea of keeping different paces, and the idea of diversity in opinions. It's really important.
Also, we shouldn't take decision upon other properties or opinions.
We shouldn't take decision upon people ways of living.
Lily : yes. I agree.
Adriana : no? Pauline : don't worry. I listened to you.
Lily : I think you catched the idea. She said another thing which... really upset me.
We talked about that earlier with Pauline and Adriana
It's this definition of "property"
To me, words have meanings.
When we use a word, we'd better know its meaning.
Because when i talked with Thomas, he told me at the end that i only see things with logic.
It chocked him, to his mind, when we are vegan we are in the emotional, in feelings first.
And that i was putting logic instead of animal suffering first, so he felt really hurt.
And i thought "yes, but you need to stay consistent!"
here : what is property?
we have the property of something, when this good is ours.
what does "the good is someone's own"?
i was reproached that the leather jacket wasn't mine, that it wasn't "my property"
that it was the property of the animal which died. Ok. good.
But "property" means :
if something is my property, i have this "something" at my disposal
i can : sell it, throw it away, burn, give it...
spread it.. Everything i want, it's MY property. I do as i please with it.
that's what property is.
So, if Nathalie is at her vegan stand, or where ever
And she sees a leather jacket and thinks "this is no one's property"
Well, she doesn't touch it...
If she grabs it, it means she recognize the fact that it is a good,
if it's a good, QED, there is a property,
and that, at the moment she grabs it and she throws it away,
she recognize the fact that it is a property, but she also assumes that it is hers. That it is her property.
Adriana : she "assume" you are talking in english now...(we also have the word "assume" in french but it means : taking responsabilities for..)
Adriana : she is imagining that it is hers.
Lily : huuum... No, i really mean that from the moment i put it in the garbage,
i concidere (i have decided) that it is my proporty. so I CAN take it to throw it away.
But by doing that, i do a damage. If this jacket is on the floor right at that moment,
it means someone put it there.
So it was not allowed at first.
That's what i tried to explain to Thomas.
You think your wife did something and you try to find justifications saying
"yes but she thought she was doing an act of tolerance and love"
To me, it's really violent. There are only 2 solutions.
I mean, at least, that's how i interpret it. either..
Adriana : tolerance and love… Lily Ka : really…
Adriana : tolerance for whom and love for who? sorry…you were talking.. Lily Ka : for animals!!…
Lily Ka : tolerance and love towards me, because she did me a favor when she threw my jacket away, you see?
She wants to show me the right path...
Lily Ka : Yeah so i will also have to talk about… Pauline : my question is : are you nice because… Can we love you because you wear a leather jacket?
Lily : no you can't. Adriana : well no, first, if you eat eggs, it's out of question…
Pauline : tolerance and love…?
Adriana : tolerance and love for animals, not for human beings.
Lily : there is also a side like "well, you did not understand how you should do. Let me help you."
"you're struggling? no problem, i'm gonna help you" i really had that feeling after reading her email
It was like "several times, you did wrong things, but we thought "well ok, we can forgive her" we will do as nothing happen"
So she wanted to give me a lesson, like "here is how life works"
"if you're vegan, it's how you have to behave"
then, i thought to myself
"there is a problem"
Adriana : I think she comes from our society, sorry to interrumpt you..
Lily : it's ok. so… Adriana : You may want us to go to the second question so « where does Nathalie come from? »
Lily : yeah where does Nathalie come from… Adriana : i think i know where she comes from..
Lily : it is something really violent. What happened wasn't an act of "tolerance and love" she saw a jacket made out of leather,
It made her uspet, it reminded her something which "bothered" her, to stay polite,
so she wanted to punish the person who let the leather jacket. End of the story.
You take the place of a judge and you decide what is good and what is wrong.
Lily : that's how i interpret it. Adriana : it depends…
Adriana : i think it depends on the definitions we give to "tolerance and love"
Lily : yeah? Adriana : especially if we are wondering « where does Nathalie comes from? »
And if she comes from the society i grew up... So, i start again (the battery turned off)
Adriana : so if we are both coming from the same society, that is to say
the parisian, french, western society or the society of today's world,
well she comes from a society in which she might have grown up in
what we call the "victim, savior and persecutor's triangle".
In which the best role to play when we want... When we have beliefs, in general, it means that we are a leader and a creator.
So the best role is the savior.
The savior is there to know for the victim what is best for him/her.
This is the first thing.
Second thing : we are using the word "tolerance", the word i told you earlier i did not want to use.
This word fits itslef to that same society where i grew up, where there is good people and...
(it's a joke, in french, "people" is : "gens" and "good" is : "bon", so "gens bons" has the same prononciation as "jambon" -> ham )
Adriana : there is good people, "jambon" for vegans, sorry (i did not catch the joke, so she explained it to me)
Lily : oh, yeah "y a des gens bons" -> y a des jambons, well ok.
Adriana : yeah, like the advert "y a des jambons.." well ok. Don't talk about adverts which are not helping us being vegans.
Adriana : there are good and bad people, but the good person who is a savior, is so good, that s/he tolerates
Adriana : the bad humans who are in her/his space. Lily : that's true. Adriana : at least, this is the logic i was able to find.
Adriana : the bad humans who are in her/his space. Lily : of course Adriana : as i said, if Nathalie grew up in the kind of system i grew up,
Adriana : and i think it's the case like most of us, so here is the explanation of the word "tolerance"
Adriana : and "love" the word we were questioning earlier asking "what i personaly means in "Honesty" when i talk about love...
well, If i started to question this notion of "love", it was because i realised that my defition of the word "love" was completely fucked up.
Sorry to use that verb, but i realised that my definition also used that triangle in which either you saved someone or you were saved.
In the second position, you feel like you have to do what your savior wants even if you don't really want to do it...
This idea of "love" in which you are going to save the little animals, is the idea of this mainstream society in which
there are tall, small, bad people, good people,
and that you owe your savior who gives you his/her unconditional love so...
Adriana : so i think Nathalie comes from this place, and the major difference between Nathalie and where we are today is
we are withdrawning from that triangle, we don't see people or things as only victims but like creations or creators.
We don't see ourselves as saviors but more like coaches.
Adriana : you Pauline, you are a psychologist… i am.. not a coach but i am looking for doing self coaching programs
so we are more from this point of view and we see the persecutor more than a challenge
Not only we are withdrawning from that idea of "i am going to teach you life" because we see you as a creator,
but we are also withdrawning from that idea of "there are good and bad people" because,
the one who was playing the bad person, the persecutor is now a challenge
S/he is not good or bad, s/he is just an opportunity for me to do better,
and the one who was playing the poor little victim who is nice but without any power, becomes a creator.
So we put that person in a pedestal and we are not in that idea (i can't here what she says, sorry xD)
Andriana : as you say, to think that the cow'd rather her skin to be thrown away instead of being on someone's back
is making a lot of presuppositions. We don't know that.
Thinking "killing cows in a vicious manner" is violent to me
Adriana : Adriana : but after... i mean... I know it's strange... Lily : you can't be in the cow's shoes.
Adriana : it's a presupposition, and it's also thinking you are above people like "i know what is good, i know what we have to do"
Adriana : as you said, to take someone else's property and to think that you have the power to say what has to be done, well..
There are these 2 things to know : the savior complex and this duality : good or bad.
To me, it counts. And it will explain to me, where she comes from.
Adriana : where does Nathalie come from? She is coming from a triangle like us, but not the same one
(here, another joke, but i won't explain ^^')
Lily : the video lasted more than 20minutes so i think we are going to split it.
you will have a lot of part for that story (3 if i'm not mistaken xD )
So... Let's put an end to the first part... We will see each other... i don't know when...
but we will see again for the... Second part of the video (but the third about the topic)
Lily : a word for the end before seeing them... Someday?
Pauline : go adriana!
Adriana : me? again? but you haven't talked since the beginning!! Pauline : i talk when i have something to say...
Adriana : that's unusual...
Pauline : that i have nothing to say?
Adriana : no, that people say what you just said.
Pauline : well, nothing!
Adriana : well, diversity
Lily : eat a lot of vegetables, drink a lot of water, but first and foremost
keep smiling!
deuces!
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