>> Support for Digging Deeper comes
from the Penn State Alumni Association, connecting alumni
to the university and to each other.
The Alumni Association is powered by Pride.
Learn more at alumni.psu.edu.
The Penn State Bookstore, now in an expanded location
at the HUB-Robeson Center, improving the student experience
at Penn State with philanthropic support
for student causes throughout the university.
PSECU, a credit union providing financial services
to its members throughout Pennsylvania since 1934.
More at PSECU.com.
And from viewers like you.
Thank you.
[ Music ]
>> How does wine go from grape to glass?
What challenges do local vineyards face?
How do Pennsylvania wines differ
from wines made in other regions?
In this edition of Digging Deeper,
Penn State President Eric Barron and guests will talk
about uncorking Central Pennsylvania's wine making
potential and expanding consumer interests in growing grapes.
He's joined by Michela Centinari, assistant professor
of Viticulture, and Ryan Elias,
associate professor of Food Science.
I'll be back later on in the show to talk one-on-one
with President Barron about the future of Penn State Extension
and opportunities for alternative spring breaks.
Now, here's President Barron.
>> Thank you so much for joining me.
This is a fun topic.
So, you know, Ryan, I thought I would start with you and ask
about wine in Pennsylvania,
because my immediate thought would have been, okay,
Napa Valley, and Pennsylvania wasn't the place for wine,
but is Pennsylvania a place for wine?
>> It certainly is, you know, it's --
the first vineyard in America was actually in Pennsylvania.
>> Really?
>> It was.
We have a long history of grape production.
I think you'll find today that most
of the grape production is juice grape production
in Erie County, particularly.
But the wine industry is a burgeoning wine industry,
it's growing, it's grown, I think we have twice
as many wineries as we did when I came here in 2008
in the state, which is a good sign.
>> So how many is that now?
>> I think it's around 200.
>> 250.
>> 250.
>> 250, wow.
>> Yeah. It's a big number.
I think it's -- we're in a climate that's different
than Napa, obviously, and that lends itself
to making different types of wines, and the wines
that we produce here are quite different than the wines
that you'd find in California, but that's okay.
>> So does that mean you see a wine from Pennsylvania,
you shouldn't be afraid; instead you should --
>> Oh, you should buy it immediately.
>> You should buy it immediately.
That's good.
So now, part of this, my understanding,
is that we say winery, but that may
or may not be the same as vineyard.
So are we producing a lot of wine in Pennsylvania
for which we're not growing the grape?
>> Yes, that's true, and I can let Michela talk more
about the grape side of things, but we have a shortage
of wine grapes in the state.
It's challenging to grow high-quality wine grapes
in our climate.
>> So we import them?
>> We import them, or we'll buy juice, we'll buy fruit from out
of state, or in state, from different parts of the state.
So if you go to a winery, most wineries, I'd say the majority
of wineries in Pennsylvania are not growing the grapes on-site
to produce the wines that they sell.
>> So Michela, what kind of grapes are we growing?
>> We are growing a lot of different varieties.
I mean, Pennsylvania is a big state.
>> Yeah.
>> So, we go from northwest Erie to southeast,
and we have what we call European like vitis,
[inaudible] variety, Chardonnay, Pinot, Merlot, Cabernet Franc,
and that are mostly in the southeast,
South Central PA [inaudible] Erie,
and we have what we call hybrid or hybrid varieties.
So, those are more cold hardy, they're less famous, but,
you know, they're easy to grow in some area where it's colder,
and they're also more disease resistance than the European.
And also we have the native, like Concord, the Niagara.
>> Uh-huh.
>> Yeah, so we have a lot.
>> So you mentioned cold and grapes, and so is this part
of the challenge of growing grapes
in Pennsylvania, and are there others?
>> Yeah. Cold definitely is a big problem, I mean,
cold during the winter but also spring, the spring for frost.
We have two very cold winter two years ago,
and a lot of vines were injured, they're, you know,
injury and then, also we reduced crop production,
I mean, of course.
And so, that was a big problem for growers,
some have to replant different varieties,
and also we have problems with frost,
maybe with a warmer early spring and after become cold.
And so, they are injured and, again, crop losses.
>> And the disease pressure is different here too.
>> Yeah. Another problem is disease pressure
because it's wet usually.
I mean, we have a humid environment during the summer.
We have a lot of rain, not every year but, you know,
we can have -- and so that is really conducive to disease.
Yeah.
>> So what types of diseases do we worry about?
>> Well, I'm not a pathologist
but I can tell you the ones that I know.
mildew -- types of mildew, powdery mildew
and downy mildew, black rot is a --
>> Yeah, black rot is a big one.
>> A big one.
>> So what is that?
That's hard to answer [inaudible].
>> I'm not a pathologist but I can --
>> I need a third guest, a pathologist.
>> Yeah. I mean, it's a fungal disease, and it's a big problem
for organic growers, you know,
they want to grow grapes organically
because there is no fungicide that really works --
organic-certified fungicide that really works for black rot.
So basically, your cluster become kind of raisins,
you know, before like during the summer, yeah,
like mummies, they call them.
>> So you have disease issues that are related to moisture,
and you have damage that can be done by cold,
and the variability
of the weather makes a tremendous amount of difference.
So, how does Penn State help grape growers overcome
those issues?
>> We do that with our research program and also with Extension,
you know, activities, educational activities,
and so we have several research project.
Some of them are commercial vineyards actually to look
at different frost protection strategies
or different canopy management practices
that can reduce disease pressure
or also can improve fruit quality, you know.
And so, I work a lot with plant pathologists or, you know,
wine people because they're all very related.
>> And do you become climate, weather savvy here in terms
of the predictions and provide warnings and?
>> Yeah. I mean we are always, you know, during the winter,
we are afraid about a cold event.
>> Yeah.
>> In the spring, we are afraid
about warm early spring and a cold event.
So, we are always worried.
We worry always about the rain before harvest.
>> Yeah.
>> And do you have -- if you have a cold spell,
do you lose the vine, actually lose the vine?
>> No, you can, I mean, you can lose your flower,
you know, and --
>> So just no crop.
>> Becomes -- yeah.
>> Then, you have to wait again.
>> Yeah, so we have to wait again.
>> So I think what you're hearing is the real challenge
to making wine is growing good fruit.
>> So what makes a good grape?
>> Well, you need to have a certain amount of sugar,
because that sugar gets converted to alcohol
and that's sort of the point of the operation.
You need a certain amount of alcohol
in the final product to make it stable.
You need to have your acid levels in the right range,
both pH and total acidity.
You need to have good flavor.
It needs to become ripe in the vineyard
at the right stage right, before harvest, and you know,
of course, all these things are so completely dependent
on weather and climate.
>> The weather.
>> So we have a very, you know, different set
of challenges in growing grapes.
You know, in warm climates in California,
they have almost the opposite problem.
They have fruit that accumulates too much sugar;
it gets too ripe.
So, it's a matter of balancing that with acid.
Here we have plenty of acid and often too little sugar.
>> And you know, I always, I think I remember reading about,
you know, an old vine and bringing it in, and do we think
that way in Pennsylvania too about what the heritage is
of the vines, or is this a different kind of story
that I'm talking about here that's just really expensive
wines out there somewhere?
>> I'll defer to you.
>> That's a hard question.
No, we are, I think we are trying more like new variety
that can adapt to our climate.
>> Right.
>> Maybe they're not famous, you know, there's no --
but they can grow well here and they can make good wine.
>> Uh-hmm.
>> And I think, you know, in addition of the weather,
like Ryan was talking, to have good quality fruit is the
vineyard manager.
I mean, what he does in the vineyard is
so important and, yeah, that is the --
>> So we have to hear all these different factors,
and you mentioned harvest.
How I do I know when to harvest my grapes?
>> Well, it's funny, I --
>> I don't actually have any grapes, but I'm sort
of imagining it, yeah.
>> So what growers, what we do, we sample, you know, our fruit
and we check sugar, acidity, pH, so those are easy measurements.
But also it's very important about especially
for making wine, the flavor and aroma.
So you know, growers or winemakers,
they're trained to taste.
Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, and they -- but sometimes we have to compromise,
you know, if a storm is coming, rain,
and we know that can cause disease, like we call bunch rot,
you know, so a rot problem, sometimes we need to harvest.
But the grower wants to harvest;
the winemaker wants to wait, you know.
>> Uh-huh.
So it's a balance?
>> It's a balance, yeah.
>> So, but literally, this is the chemistry
and sampling the sugar content
and someone plucking the grape and saying it's --
>> The flavor, the aroma and the flavor is there, yeah.
>> For the vast majority of wineries,
I think the very large wineries would do more advanced chemical
analyses of the flavor compounds,
the aroma compounds in the fruit.
But basically, you're relying on the winemaker
or the vineyard manager, whoever, to go into the vineyard
and smell and taste these things
and using human sensory perception as the guiding tool.
>> And then, if you're doing like you were saying
with a larger winemaker and you're sampling all
of these different components,
does that provide a guide on what you do next?
>> Certainly, so you know, we typically measure the things
that are easy to measure in the vineyard,
things like sugar, things like acid.
If you're looking, you know, you're looking
for a specific target sugar content
which would be predictive of final alcohol,
you're making decisions based on aroma.
If all these things are coming together at the right time,
that is your decision to harvest, balanced with,
is there a storm coming?
What's the forecast like in a week?
>> Yeah. Yeah.
So and then, am I picturing machines going
down the vineyards, or am I picturing a large group
of people with big sacks collecting grapes?
>> Both.
>> Both?
>> Both, in Pennsylvania mostly.
I mean, in Erie, it will be machine mostly.
In Erie there are, you know, big Concord vineyards.
>> That are more for juice than wine.
>> More for juice.
They have large size vineyards.
Other part of Pennsylvania, mostly we have a small,
you know, 5, 10 acres vineyards, so mostly done by hand.
>> Done by hand because it's,
just economically that's the only way to do it,
but is there any difference
with the product depending on how it's harvest?
>> Yeah, that's a good question.
>> Certainly, yeah.
>> Yes, I mean, there is some --
a lot of research going on to optimize mechanization,
so you know, the quality doesn't go down,
I mean, it's still there.
>> When you have a human going through they're able
to select certain clusters, omit other clusters,
they can be more gentle with the fruit.
>> This one's ready, this one's not.
This one has a problem, this one --
>> Exactly.
>> Yeah.
>> And then, you know, lay them
into a bin gently whereas a mechanical harvester going
through a vineyard is indiscriminate;
it's just pulling everything in.
>> Yeah.
>> And you see a lot of broken clusters, broken berries.
>> So Ryan, can I ask you what's next after that?
What happens next after you've put the grapes in the bin?
>> Now, this is the easy part.
>> This is the easy part?
>> This is the easy part.
I'm embarrassed to admit it as someone
that teaches food processing.
Winemaking is actually one of the easiest,
most straightforward food processing operations,
especially compared to brewing or making dairy products.
It's pretty simple.
You're basically trying to lock in the quality of the fruit
and not mess it up too much.
So, to answer your question, you'd have fruit that would come
in to the winery, it would go to a part
of the winery called the crush pad and it would go
into a machine called a crusher-destemmer,
which would both crush the fruit and take the stems off.
And then, if you're making white wines, you follow different path
from making red wines, it's a slightly different path,
but after this you're adding yeast.
You're waiting a bit.
You're sampling and measuring the decline in sugar
as it's consumed and the alcohol as it's being produced.
>> That's easy to measure?
>> Easy to measure, yes.
>> And there's a difference there whether I have a sweet
wine or a dry wine by how long I wait?
>> Typically, wines that are sweet are --
well, you have two options when you're making a sweet wine.
You can arrest the fermentation, you can stop the fermentation
from going to completion.
So you preserve some of that sugar,
that -- or the grape sugar.
The other option is to go to completion, to go to dryness
and then add sugar after the fact, back-sweetening.
Those are your options and you can do it
with reds or with whites.
>> So this is -- this seems very interesting to me
because here I'm deciding in the process with the grape
that a level of sweetness that I want to have
and how I'm developing my wine, but I'm always used
to really appreciate German wine labels.
I don't think they're even that way anymore,
but they would tell you exactly where you were in the harvest,
and where you were in the harvest had a great deal to do
with how sweet it was as well.
>> Sure, certainly.
Yeah.
>> So --
>> This is -- a big issue is wine labels and the lack
of information and the lack of uniformity
across wine labels, I think.
>> But I have choices, time of harvest, or --
>> Certainly.
>> In the process of fermentation
to decide how sweet I'm going to let it be.
>> Or whether or not sugar has been added
to the final product, you know, that's --
>> Common?
>> Yeah. We have very little information to go on,
at least in our labels.
It's hard to really know.
Unless it says on the label, this is a sweet wine,
this is a dry wine, this is semi-sweet.
>> Otherwise, you're just -- it's experimental.
>> It's experimental.
>> Yeah.
>> With some wines you can get an indication
of sweetness based on the alcohol.
Alcohol concentration by volume has
to be disclosed on our labels.
If it's a low number,
it typically means it's a sweet wine.
>> Oh, I never knew that, a useful tidbit there.
So, now I also remember, a friend of mine making wine
and I thought it was awful,
and my memory is there was a sulphite taste to it
or something like that.
What are the common mistakes that are made?
>> Well, can I ask, was this a more of rotten egg smell,
or was it like a burnt match kind of smell
when you say sulfite?
>> Ooh. I don't know.
>> Just unpleasant, it sounds like.
>> Yeah, just kind of had an aftertaste to it that was,
but I don't think it was burnt match.
>> Well, a very common issue
with winemaking is the production
of these sulfurous compounds that smell like rotten egg
or sewage, in some cases.
>> Right.
>> They're very easily detected by humans, and they result often
from a poor fermentation management.
So a lack of nutrients.
>> Wish I had known
and complained [inaudible] fermentation.
>> Yeah.
>> And it's been years.
>> Right, right.
>> Leave something -- so, yeah,
so what's the mistake they're making?
>> Not understanding how much nutrient the yeast needs based
on the initial juice chemistry.
Often -- a key analysis
that winemakers will do especially large winemakers will
measure the amount of nitrogen that's available
to the yeast in the juice.
And if it's below a certain threshold,
they'll supplement it to prevent this.
That's not the only mechanism to get these off flavors,
but that's a common one.
>> So but if you're paying attention to the chemistry
and following this kind of process, do you describe this
as hard or easy to make the wine if you're an individual?
>> It's quite easy.
I'd say it's quite easy.
>> If you follow on the steps, yeah.
>> You follow the steps.
If you are fastidious, if you are good with sanitation,
if you are good about keeping detailed notes,
it's a simple thing to do.
The equipment, the investment that you need in terms
of equipment is minimal.
We're talking about glass carboys
or small inexpensive fermenters,
a way to measure the specific gravity of the solution
to measure sugar, and a good nose, a good palate,
and that's all you need.
>> Is there popularity for wines that aren't made with grapes,
and do we have such an industry in Pennsylvania as well?
>> Yeah, in some areas
in Pennsylvania more than other, yeah.
They -- I personally prefer the wine, you know,
they made with grapes.
>> Grapes.
Yeah.
>> I'm from Italia, but yeah, in some area
of Pennsylvania they're popular, you know, this fruit wine,
[inaudible] fruit wines, yes.
>> Now, Michaela, if I have this right, you're from Bologna?
>> Yes, Bologna.
Yeah, perfect.
>> And so, compare and contrast wine from your hometown
to Pennsylvania that you're busily working in this industry.
>> Yeah, I mean it's, you know, different,
very different reality, and the climate is different,
the variety are different, but I think, you know,
I also like Pennsylvania wines.
I mean, and I think there is a lot that can be done, you know,
and a lot of variety that we can try and so many different kind
of climates and soil and hybrids and also native variety.
You can make a good wine, a good Concorde wine
or more European variety.
And also I like here
in Pennsylvania to work with growers.
We didn't do it a lot there in Italy.
You know, growers, they've been growing grapes forever.
>> Forever and so --
>> So like, you know, we know and --
>> We know our weather, we know our grapes, we know our --
>> Yeah, we know our variety, you know.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> What variety to grow.
Here, it's more a young industry, you know,
they need more guidance and I like that.
Yeah, they're very passionate about growing grapes.
>> So I have one last quick question,
if someone spots the two of you in the wine store,
should they follow you around to decide what to buy?
>> Of course.
>> I think what you'd find if you followed me
around is I look for cheap wines.
It's sort of -- my passion's looking for --
>> Good but inexpensive.
>> Yeah, I look for value.
And actually, I'd say our state store has a very good selection,
and I think they are one of the largest buyers.
So, there's a nice volume discount I think that's passed
on to consumers.
>> Thank you very much.
>> Thank you.
>> Thank you.
[ Music ]
>> Next up on Digging Deeper, I'll talk one on one
with President Barron about Penn State Extension funding
and about the possibility of an academic major in winemaking.
President Barron, in a study I saw released in January,
it was determined that the United States' wine
and grape products accounted for $160 billion for our economy,
and agricultural studies have always been
and always will be a very important field at Penn State.
Is there a time that you see that maybe a winemaking major
or brewing major at Penn State is created?
>> So I do think it's possible.
I actually asked our two guests about path to a major,
and one of the things they said is there's really a growing set
of career opportunities for students in this field
that as -- that particularly
in Pennsylvania we have a very young industry,
and it presents lots and lots of different opportunities.
And you can get the courses you want embedded in other majors,
but usually that's a sign that you're on the way to a new major
when you have -- start to have that kind of demand.
>> Penn State Extension specialists assist great growers
throughout the state.
In the last round of budget talks,
Penn State's Extension program was facing dramatic cuts.
In the end, the funding was preserved,
but a lot of people are very uneasy about that,
specifically employees through Extension.
How damaging was that to the program?
>> So first of all, there's no way
that employees can't be concerned when you go
through a budget cycle for which you're eight,
nine months into the year and you don't have a budget.
And whereas a student paying tuition can expect
to have the classes still be taught;
that's the major revenue for our budget.
If you're an Extension agent and the dollars come purely
from the state and from grants and contracts,
you can't use the tuition dollar to pay for an Extension agent,
at least not comfortably.
So, it creates a certain amount of risk, but as we saw,
Pennsylvania stepped up
and I think they recognized just how important agriculture is.
And so they stepped up to make sure that agriculture is funded.
Unfortunately, you do lose people
when they're uncertain about their future.
>> So is Extension in a better position funding-wise going
forward or will it still always be vulnerable just based
on how it's funded?
>> Well, I think that was a unique year in many ways
that it took so long; that doesn't happen very often.
But at the same time, the budget in Harrisburg is not great.
And so, we will see risk to the university's budget.
I do not think in the same way that it was two years ago.
>> So, switching gears here a little bit,
students at Penn State just returned from spring break,
and a lot had opportunities to either travel abroad
or participate in research through embedded programs
at Penn State, so what are your thoughts on these programs?
>> Okay, I think they're absolutely wonderful.
These are students using their spring break,
and you could imagine them kicking back in Cancun
or someplace like that, but instead they've decided to focus
on service, and they've decided to focus
on having an experience outside of the typical U.S. experience.
And these are activities that enrich their education
and quite frankly will enrich their lives
for a long time to come.
>> Thank you so much.
On behalf of Penn State President Eric Barron,
we'd like to thank our guests, Michela Centinari,
assistant professor of Viticulture, and Ryan Elias,
associate professor of Food Science.
I'm Kayla Fish.
Thanks for joining us.
>> Support for Digging Deeper comes
from the Penn State Alumni Association, connecting alumni
to the university and to each other.
The Alumni Association is powered by Pride.
Learn more at alumni.psu.edu.
The Penn State Bookstore, now in an expanded location
at the HUB-Robeson Center, improving the student experience
at Penn State with philanthropic support
for student causes throughout the university.
PSECU, a credit union providing financial services
to its members throughout Pennsylvania since 1934.
More at PSECU.com.
And from viewers like you.
Thank you.
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