♪
[Moderator]: I will entertain one more question if...
Because I know there's been some discussion and debate on this.
If not, we will move on to the next question, and that is this:
If the image of God is rationality, is Jesus Christ the perfect and full image,
the perfect rationality?
[Dr. CLARK]: Yes indeed.
In him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
He is the Logos of God.
He is the wisdom of God.
The wisdom and the power of God.
[Moderator]: The next question I have is:
could you define more fully just what you mean by rationality?
[Dr. CLARK]: Yes.
[Audience laughter]
[Dr. CLARK]: I suppose the easiest way is to give a little example,
but I could put it in abstract terms if you wanted.
But rationality consists in arguing according to the laws of logic.
If you say, to use a 2000 year old example,
if you say all men are mortal and Socrates is a man,
therefore Socrates is mortal, you are acting rationally.
You are thinking rationally.
But if you say all men are mortal and Socrates is a man
therefore Socrates will never die, you are irrational.
So rationality consists in thinking, arguing according to the rules of logic.
[Moderator]: Dr. Benton?
About the image of God is rationality, is Jesus Christ perfect rationality?
Any comment?
[Dr. Benton]: Dr. Clark said He was.
[Audience laughter]
[Dr. Benton]: I'm not going to argue with him.
[Laughs]
[Moderator]: You never argue with him? [Dr. Benton]: No sir.
[Moderator]: No comment? [Dr. Benton]: No comment.
[Moderator]: Dr. Smick?
[Dr. CLARK]: No comment? That is a comment. [Laughs]
[Audience laughter]
[Dr. Morris]: Not this time. [Moderator]: Not this time.
[Audience laughter]
[Moderator]: There are more questions in this area, probing this same subject.
Does man bear the image of God, or is man the image of God?
[Dr. CLARK]: I think it is better to say man 'is' the image and glory of God.
You'll find that in 1st Corinthians something or other.
[Dr. Morris]: Eleven.
Chapter eleven.
[Moderator]: Dr. Morris?
[Dr. Morris]: No, I'm happy with that. It is what 1st Corinthians 11 says.
[Moderator]: Dr. Clark, are those who,
due to brain damage do not make decisions moral or otherwise,
show inventiveness or have a knowledge of history,
still the image of God?
[Dr. CLARK]: The image of God, as I think everyone here would agree, has been defaced.
We talk about total depravity and sin affects all of our functions.
It is also obvious that sin affects some people more than others.
There are degrees of heinousness in sin.
The effects of sin are clearer in some people than others.
And these would be examples of degrees of these effects.
The image is not destroyed, but it is damaged in various ways.
Some in one way, some in another, some in greater degree.
[Moderator]: Panel, any comments?
If rationality… the next question Dr. Clark, is God's image...
If rationality is God's image...
No.
[Audience laughter]
That doesn't quite read right.
If rationality is God's image,
or is rationality that which is unique as evidenced by animals, the image?
[Dr. CLARK]: In my lecture I tried to show that animals were not rational.
They can't do geometry, nor do they have any such thing as narrative.
These I think are two essential parts of rationality.
And the animals do not have it. They are not rational beings.
They can't learn Aristotelian syllogisms.
[Audience laughter]
[Moderator]: I guess the point of the question is,
do you really limit this aspect as the only distinguishing feature between animals and man?
[Dr. CLARK]: I think it is the root, well of course there are physical distinctions.
I don't suppose that's in contest.
Now, but yes, the rational principle of man would be
the basis of what other distinctions you might think of.
At least I don't know of any exception to that at the moment.
[Moderator]: Comments from the panel please.
Dr. Morris?
[Dr. Morris]: No expert on animals.
[Moderator]: No expert on animals.
[Audience laughter]
On the image of God, another question Dr. Clark.
And as soon as we finish this subject
we're going to stand up for a few moments.
Dr. Clark, is man more purely or clearly seen as the image of God
in the intermediate state than in his created or resurrected body?
[Dr. CLARK]: Well, I would think that man's essential nature is more clearly
seen in the intermediate state than it is now.
Because it seems from Christ's words to the thief on the cross
that the thief was to be divested of the effects of sin,
and be united with Christ by the end of that day.
Now as for the resurrection body,
you have the account of it in the fifteenth chapter of First Corinthians.
You have the analogy of the grain of wheat being rather small
and the stalk of wheat which is somewhat of a plant...
And we have the impression that our resurrection bodies
are going to be more glorious than our present bodies.
Unfortunately the description in the fifteenth chapter is not too lengthy or detailed.
It leaves us in considerable ignorance.
But I should suppose that, although the intermediate state
is a clearer example of man's rationality than our present state,
that at least we will have some tools, a body of some sort,
to work with that might express our rationality more clearly.
But in any case, rationality per se is this logical criterion and
that would not change in any of these three states.
[Moderator]: I have another question that is very closely related to this.
And the point of this question then basically is this.
You would say then that the body is in no way related to the image of God?
[Dr. CLARK]: Well, "in no way," that is entirely too general.
I would say, and this is a rough analogy,
I would say it is related the way a jammer is related to a carpenter.
[Dr. Smick]: I'm afraid I'd come out on the loose, on the short end of the stick.
I would say that we ought to bear in mind that,
according to the Bible, God created man to have a body.
And apparently that was God's ultimate purpose for man,
not that man should be a disembodied spirit,
but that he should have a body.
And so that the resurrection is a very important phase.
I mean, we just don't become disembodied spirits,
but we receive eternal bodies to be united to our spirit
and we are not the total being that God originally purposed until that is so.
I would say there are aspects of the body of man
that do reflect the image of God.
The very fact that our bodies function so that we can see.
One of the great glories that I think distinguishes us from animals too,
it has to do with our bodies.
You know, even if a monkey could be taught to some small thing,
I mean to speak shall we say, the monkey wouldn't be able to do it
because he doesn't have the voice box to do it.
I mean if theoretically he could do it, which he cannot,
I think I agree with Dr. Clark, that he cannot truly reason.
But even if he could, he doesn't have the voice box to do it.
He doesn't have the body to do it, and this body which God has given us
by which we can make words and articulate,
we must remember that articulation was done before writing.
That is one of the great distinguishing features of man,
his ability to speak and use words.
[Moderator]: Anyone else? Dr. Morris? Dr. Benton?
[Dr. Benton / Dr. Morris]: Carry on, no sir.
[Moderator]: One last word, Dr. Clark?
For this is the last on the image of God and God's rationality.
And I mean the rationality aspect.
All has been said?
[Dr. CLARK]: I thought you said you were going to give one more question.
[Moderator]: No, I gave this last question here. That was about the …
[Dr. CLARK]: Oh, if you want me to make a comment on Dr. Smick,
I would agree with his description of some physical parts or so on,
but the previous question had to do with the relation between
the physical parts and the image of God.
And I would regard the relationship as being a tool,
rather than an essential part of reason.
[Audience]: Can I ask a question?
[Moderator]: Yes, you may ask a question.
That's your privilege, okay?
[Audience]: We have determined, I believe, that man is the image of God.
And I'm wondering if man is body or soul or whether man is body and soul.
And if man is made in the image of God and man is body and soul,
how can the image be in one part and not the other part?
[Moderator]: You're asking this of Dr. Clark?
[Audience]: I'm asking it of anybody. [Moderator]: Alright, Dr. Clark first.
[Dr. CLARK]: The account in Genesis says that God formed the body of Adam
out of the dust of the ground,
then He breathed into His nostrils the breath or spirit of life,
and that combination was called a living soul.
Since the clay of the earth is not the image of God,
and since there is only one other element that goes into the makeup of man,
it's that other element that is the image of God, namely God's breath.
So that man is his spirit.
[Moderator]: Comment?
[Dr. Morris]: With all respect to Dr. Clark, I don't find that particularly satisfying.
Uh...
[Dr. CLARK]: Animals have bodies and they were not created in the image of God.
So how could the body be the image of God?
[???]: But the animal was also called the 'nephesh hayah', a living soul.
[Dr. CLARK] Of course, and animals also had spirits, but not rational spirits.
The word 'ruach' and 'nephesh', I'm good at Hebrew.
[Audience laughter]
[Dr. CLARK]: The words 'nephesh' and 'ruach' are used as of animals just as of men.
That doesn't bear on the question of the image of God.
[Moderator]: Dr. Morris?
[Dr. Morris]: Still not very happy with it.
[Audience laughter]
[Dr. Morris]: That probably just points to my dumbness and not to the ???
But I think that Dr. Benton has put his finger
on something of great importance,
but I doubt that we could argue it out in the time at our disposal here.
But, the body is spoken of in Scripture as an integral part of man
so much so that as Dr. Smick has pointed out the resurrection
is an important part of Scriptural teaching.
Bodily values don't cease because we die.
We are not continuing simply as rational spirits,
but there is a spiritual body.
Now, I am not here talking very much in my own field
and I speak with great reverence and respect in the presence of Dr. Clark
as this is his field, and he knows about it, and I don't.
That's why I'm saying very little more than that
I'm not terribly happy with the way it's…
what's wrong with it, I don't know.
[Audience laughter]
♪
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