FOGEL: I JUST WANT TO START THIS BY SAYING
WHAT A PRIVILEGE IT IS FOR ME TO BE MODERATING THIS SESSION.
THESE ARE 4 REMARKABLE PEOPLE.
THEY'VE ACHIEVED REMARKABLE THINGS.
AND I AM THINKING BACK TO A PROGRAM
THAT CHIEF JUDGE COLE AND I WERE AT LAST YEAR.
IT WAS ABOUT THE LEGACY OF RECONSTRUCTION.
AND WE HAD PRESENTATIONS BY HISTORIANS,
AND WE HAD PRESENTATIONS BY JUDGES WHO HAD THOUGHT ABOUT
THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE 13th, 14th, AND 15th AMENDMENTS.
AND THEN WE HAD SOME PRIVATE MEETINGS
AMONG THE JUDGES, AND AT ONE POINT
IN ONE OF THE PRIVATE MEETINGS,
PEOPLE STARTED TALKING ABOUT THEIR PERSONAL HISTORIES.
AND IT WAS, I THINK, IN MY ENTIRE JUDICIAL CAREER,
IT WAS ONE OF THE MOST MOVING THINGS I'VE EVER SEEN
BECAUSE I LEARNED THINGS ABOUT PEOPLE THAT I DIDN'T KNOW
AND PEOPLE SPOKE WITH TREMENDOUS PASSION
ABOUT THEIR PERSONAL HISTORIES,
BOTH AFRICAN AMERICAN AND WHITE JUDGES
AND LATINO JUDGES.
SO, IT WAS JUST THE EFFECT THAT GROWING UP
IN AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE RACE MATTERED
AND WHERE PEOPLE'S BACKGROUNDS WERE STRONGLY AFFECTED BY THAT,
HOW IT AFFECTED ALL OF US AS PEOPLE,
AND IT WAS REALLY QUITE COMPELLING.
AND CHIEF JUDGE COLE WAS ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO TOLD HIS STORY
AND I'M GOING TO START WITH HIM,
BOTH BECAUSE OF THAT AND ALSO BECAUSE
WE'RE GOING TO GO IN ALPHABETICAL ORDER
AND HE'S FIRST IN THAT CATEGORY AS WELL.
SO, GUY, LET ME ASK YOU, YOU SAID--
AND I'M GOING TO QUOTE SOMETHING YOU WROTE TO ME--
"PART OF GETTING ME INTO THE LAW
IS TIED TO BIRMINGHAM'S TORTURED HISTORY."
SO, TELL US ABOUT THAT.
COLE: IT WAS REALLY IN THE CRUCIBLE
OF THAT TIME PERIOD FOR ME THAT
AS JUST THROUGH THE EYES OF A CHILD
THAT I CAME TO HAVE A SENSE FOR WHAT I VIEWED
AS FAIRNESS AND JUSTNESS
AND WHAT'S RIGHT AND WHAT'S NOT RIGHT.
THERE WERE A NUMBER OF KIDS, OF COURSE,
WHO GREW UP ON THE TOP OF THE HILL
AND MANY OF THEM HAVE GONE INTO LAW, MEDICINE, AND OTHER FIELDS.
BUT THERE'S AN ARTICLE BACK IN 2005 IN THE "BIRMINGHAM NEWS"
THAT NOTES, I THINK IT WAS WRITTEN BY
A GUY NAMED JOHN ARCHIBALD, AND IT SAYS SOMETHING LIKE
"JUSTICE ROLLS DOWN FROM THE HILL."
AND IT NOTES THAT AT THAT TIME
THERE WERE 6 PEOPLE FROM BIRMINGHAM IN MY AGE RANGE
WITHIN A 4-BLOCK AREA WHO HAD BECOME
EITHER FEDERAL OR STATE JUDGES.
AND I DON'T KNOW IF THAT IS
UNDER OR ABOVE THE SORT OF NATIONAL AVERAGE,
BUT SOMETHING TELLS ME THAT'S ABOVE.
IT WAS THE AREA WHERE THERE WERE
A NUMBER OF CIVIL RIGHTS LEADERS,
THERE WERE BLACK BUSINESSMEN AND DOCTORS AND DENTISTS,
AND THE LAWYERS WHO WERE THERE IN MANY CASES WERE VERY MUCH
ACTIVISTS IN THE CIVIL RIGHTS ARENA.
ARTHUR SHORES, ABOUT WHOM SEVERAL BOOKS HAVE BEEN WRITTEN,
WAS A LAWYER WHO LIVED A BLOCK FROM ME.
HE WAS MARTIN LUTHER KING'S ALABAMA LAWYER, SO TO SPEAK.
OSCAR ADAMS, FOR ANY OF YOU WHO ARE FROM ALABAMA,
WAS THE FIRST BLACK JUSTICE ON THE ALABAMA SUPREME COURT.
AND THERE WERE SEVERAL OTHER LAWYERS ON THE HILL,
AS I CALL IT, WHO WERE JUST
VERY ACTIVE IN CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVITIES.
SO, I GUESS, JEREMY, THAT'S WHERE I GOT MY FIRST START.
IT WAS AN AREA THAT WAS ROCKED,
AS MANY ARTICLES THAT MANY OF YOU HAVE PROBABLY READ INDICATE,
BY BOMBINGS, AND THAT'S HOW IT GOT THE NAME "DYNAMITE HILL."
ARTHUR SHORES' HOUSE WAS BOMBED I THINK 7 TIMES,
AND THEN THE 16th STREET CHURCH BOMBING
THAT KILLED 4 YOUNG GIRLS--
CYNTHIA WESLEY IS ONE OF THOSE GIRLS WHO LIVED NEXT DOOR TO ME.
CAROLE ROBERTSON WAS ANOTHER YOUNG GIRL.
THEY WERE 14 YEARS OLD AT THAT TIME.
BIRMINGHAM'S COME A LONG WAY,
AND I'M VERY PROUD OF ITS PROGRESS AND ITS EVOLUTION.
I DO HAVE ONE OF MY BROTHERS WHO STILL LIVES THERE,
SO I GET BACK TO SEE IT FROM TIME TO TIME.
BUT I THINK THAT'S PART OF THE PATH.
AND I DON'T KNOW IF ANY OF THE 6 OF US WHO BECAME JUDGES
CAN REALLY POINT TO ANY ONE THING ABOUT BIRMINGHAM
THAT SORT OF LED US ON THIS ROAD TOWARD
BECOMING LAWYERS AND JUDGES.
BUT IN THE CONVERSATIONS I'VE HAD WITH A COUPLE OF PEOPLE,
IT WAS JUST BEING A PART OF THAT MOVEMENT AT THAT TIME
THAT SO MANY PEOPLE, BLACK AND WHITE,
HAD TOWARD TRYING TO BRING RACIAL JUSTICE TO BIRMINGHAM.
GREGORY: BOTH PARENTS WORKED IN THE TOBACCO FACTORY.
I WAS THE FIRST PERSON IN MY FAMILY
TO GRADUATE FROM HIGH SCHOOL, LET ALONE TO GO TO COLLEGE,
AND THEN ON TO LAW SCHOOL.
BUT MY PARENTS, THE PATHWAY CLEARLY STARTED WITH THEM.
THEY GAVE ME BROAD SHOULDERS.
AND EVEN THOUGH I LIVED IN
A PARALLEL UNIVERSE, IF YOU WILL,
EVERYTHING WAS SEGREGATED, SEGREGATED SCHOOLS.
I THINK I STARTED SCHOOL BACK IN 1959.
I WAS JUST SO BLESSED
EVEN WITHIN THAT CRUCIBLE OF SEGREGATION
BECAUSE HAD I LIVED SOME 60 MILES
TO THE WEST IN PRINCE EDWARD COUNTY,
THAT WAS THE SAME MONTH THEY STARTED MASSIVE RESISTANCE
AND THERE WERE NO SCHOOLS THERE FOR 5 YEARS
FOR AFRICAN AMERICANS.
SO, I WAS FORTUNATE, BUT I STARTED IN '59,
AND I REMEMBER HAVING OLD BOOKS THAT WERE SO OLD I REMEMBER
THERE WAS BARELY ENOUGH ROOM AT THE BOTTOM
FOR ME TO PUT MY NAME ON, AND I ALWAYS THINK ABOUT THAT.
I SAID, "I DON'T KNOW WHERE THE PREVIOUS OWNERS ARE NOW
"AND I HOPE THEY'RE ALL DOING WELL,
"BUT THANK GOD THAT LITTLE BOY'S NAME WHO WAS ON THE BOTTOM
IS ON THE FOURTH CIRCUIT COURT OF APPEALS,"
AND THAT'S NOT ABOUT ME, THAT'S ABOUT MANY PEOPLE WHO STRUGGLE
AND WHO BELIEVE IN THOSE DAYS WHEN HOPE UNBORN HAD DIED,
THAT SOMEBODY LIKE ME COULD READ THE CONSTITUTION
AND BOOKS ABOUT THE FULLNESS OF THE AMERICAN DREAM
AND ONE DAY I MIGHT BE ABLE TO WALK IN THERE.
BUT THERE WERE SOME DIFFICULTIES.
I REMEMBER IN THE PARK THERE WERE BENCHES,
AND AFRICAN AMERICANS, BASICALLY, JUST YOU KEEP GOING.
IF YOU WENT IN, YOU DIDN'T SIT DOWN.
BUT FINALLY WHEN THE LAW SAYS YOU HAD TO,
THE BENCHES WERE REMOVED SO THAT NO ONE COULD SIT DOWN.
AND I THINK ABOUT THAT IN TERMS OF [INAUDIBLE]
THOUGHT ABOUT THAT, THAT PEOPLE HAVE
A WAY OF FINDING COMMON GROUND,
AND ANOTHER IRONY IN THE SENSE THAT
DIDN'T HAVE BENCHES BUT NOW I SIT ON A BENCH.
YEAH, BUT I THINK ABOUT THAT SO MANY PEOPLE
COULD'VE BEEN MANY THINGS.
I TAKE SOME PAUSE WHEN PEOPLE TALK ABOUT BEING A CREDIT
OR AN ANOMALY OF RACE OR OF PEOPLE.
NOT AT ALL.
THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE MUCH SMARTER THAN I AM.
IT'S JUST BECAUSE OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES
DIDN'T GIVE THE OPPORTUNITIES AND I JUST FEEL SO FORTUNATE.
AND LASTLY, I THINK ABOUT A PATHWAY.
I WENT TO VIRGINIA STATE COLLEGE,
WHICH IS A HISTORICALLY BLACK COLLEGE IN PETERSBURG,
AND MY MOTHER, WHEN SHE WAS 16 YEARS OLD,
SHE WAS A DORMITORY MAID IN THAT SCHOOL,
AND I THINK ABOUT THE TIME--
MY MOM WOULD'VE BEEN A GREAT LAWYER.
SHE COULD ARGUE HER CASE, NO QUESTION,
AND BACK IT UP, TOO, MANY TIMES, LITERALLY.
BUT I THOUGHT ABOUT SHE DIDN'T CURSE THE DARKNESS,
INSTEAD SHE LIT A CANDLE,
AND I'M PART OF THAT CANDLE, AND MY JOB I FEEL THAT
WHEREVER I AM TO LIGHT THAT CANDLE FOR ALL PEOPLE--
BLACK, WHITE, BROWN, YELLOW-- WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE,
THAT THE FULLNESS OF JUSTICE AND WHAT
CONSTITUTIONAL DEMOCRACY IS CAN BE INFLUENTIAL.
JOHNSON: MY PARENTS ARE FROM
ASCENSION PARISH, DONALDSONVILLE,
AS YOU SAID, AND A RURAL PARISH
WITHOUT A WHOLE LOT OF OPPORTUNITIES,
SO A LOT OF FOLKS WOUND UP IN NEW ORLEANS.
AND I WENT TO SCHOOL THERE
AND, OF COURSE, THE SCHOOLS WERE SEGREGATED.
WHEN I GRADUATED FROM HIGH SCHOOL IN 1960,
OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS WERE STILL SEGREGATED.
AND I CAN STILL RECALL GETTING ON A BUS
ON ST. CLAUDE AVENUE AND PASSING THE SCHOOL EVERY DAY,
AND OUR TEACHER HAD ANNOUNCED BROWN AGAINST BOARD OF EDUCATION
WHEN I WAS IN, I GUESS, MIDDLE SCHOOL, AND I SAID,
"WELL, YOU KNOW, I'LL GET A CHANCE TO GO TO THAT SCHOOL,"
BUT IT DIDN'T HAPPEN BECAUSE IN LOUISIANA,
AS IN EVERYWHERE ELSE IN THE SOUTH,
WE DESEGREGATED THE SYSTEM FROM THE GROUND UP,
MEANING FROM FIRST GRADE, I THINK PROBABLY
ARKANSAS CENTRAL HIGH SCHOOL IN ARKANSAS
MAY HAVE BEEN THE ONLY STATE THAT DESEGREGATED
FROM THE HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL FROM THE TOP DOWN.
GRADUATED FROM HIGH SCHOOL IN NEW ORLEANS
AND HAD THE GREAT OPPORTUNITY TO ATTEND SPELMAN COLLEGE
IN ATLANTA ON A SCHOLARSHIP.
I WOULD'VE GONE TO DILLARD OR XAVIER, PROBABLY,
AND BEEN A SCHOOLTEACHER IF THE FOLK FROM SPELMAN COLLEGE
HADN'T SHOWN UP AND OFFERED ME THE SCHOLARSHIP.
SO, I WOUND UP IN ATLANTA FOR COLLEGE.
IT BROADENED MY VISION, HAD A CHANCE TO MEET HOWARD MOORE
AND SOME OTHER PROMINENT BLACK LAWYERS
AND HAD A CHANCE TO WORK FOR THEM,
SUMMERS WITH THE LEGAL DEFENSE FUND.
AND THAT'S WHAT I DID FIRST,
WORKING IN SCHOOL DESEGREGATION CASES
AROUND THE SOUTH IN MISSISSIPPI AND BIRMINGHAM;
MONTGOMERY; GADSDEN, ALABAMA; AND TENNESSEE.
AND MY JOB WAS TO SIT THERE ON THE FRONT PORCH
AND CONVINCE PARENTS THAT THEY SHOULD SEND THEIR FIRST GRADERS
TO THE NEWLY DESEGREGATED SCHOOLS.
AND EVERYBODY KNEW THE HISTORY OF VIOLENCE,
AND SO I'VE GOT TO BE PERSUASIVE BECAUSE I'M TELLING SOMEONE,
"NO, WE REALLY--THE BROWN AGAINST BOARD OF EDUCATION
"DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING UNLESS WE TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS LAWSUIT,
THIS JUDGMENT, AND THIS LITIGATION."
AND SO, I'VE GOT TO CONVINCE THE PARENT
THAT THEY NEED TO SEND THEIR CHILD INTO WHAT THEY KNOW
MAY EVEN BE A VIOLENT SITUATION.
AND MAYBE THAT'S WHERE I STARTED THE PERSUASIVE SKILLS.
I DID THAT SUMMERS AND IN A WHOLE LOT OF SOUTHERN STATES.
STEWART: I GREW UP IN THAT PART OF THE STATE.
IT WAS A VERY RACIST AREA OF THE STATE.
I GREW UP WITH AN ALL-BLACK HIGH SCHOOL.
IT WAS THE KIND OF PLACE ONCE I LEFT
I REALLY NEVER WANTED TO COME BACK THERE.
BUT I GREW UP.
WHEN I WAS 4 YEARS OLD, MY DAD WAS A LEAD PLAINTIFF
IN A CLASS ACTION TO GET A NEGRO SUBDIVISION
FOR US THERE IN SHREVEPORT, AND CONSTANCE BAKER MOTLEY,
WHO LATER BECAME THE FIRST AFRICAN AMERICAN FEDERAL JUDGE,
WAS A HOUSING SPECIALIST WITH THE LDF,
AND SO SHE CAME TO SHREVEPORT AND REPRESENTED MY DAD
IN A CLASS TO TRY TO GET THE HOUSE MOVING FORWARD.
WE NEVER GOT THE HOUSE DUE TO A VARIETY OF RACIAL ISSUES,
INCLUDING THE POLICE JURY AND OTHER PEOPLE
WHO PASSED AN ORDINANCE THAT THEY COULDN'T HOOK UTILITIES UP
TO THE SUBDIVISION AND SO ON AND SO FORTH
AND A WHOLE LOT OF OTHER MACHINATIONS
THAT I LEARNED ABOUT EARLIER.
BUT THE POINT IS, IS THAT MY DAD IS 90, STILL ALIVE,
WAS A LETTER CARRIER.
HE CARRIED THE MAIL BEFORE THEY RODE
IN THE TRUCK, IN THE JEEP.
HE CARRIED THE MAIL UP AND DOWN THE HILLS,
BUT HE WORKED PART TIME AT NIGHT
SELLING AIR CONDITIONERS AND ALL THAT.
MY MOTHER WAS A DOMESTIC WORKER.
BOTH OF OUR PARENTS BELIEVED
THAT EDUCATION WAS A GREAT EQUALIZER.
AND SO, WHEN WE WERE YOUNG,
THEY TAUGHT US TO READ, TO STUDY,
[INAUDIBLE] BOUGHT ME A "TIME" MAGAZINE SUBSCRIPTION
WHEN I WAS IN FIFTH GRADE.
IT IS UNBROKEN EVEN TO NOW THAT I STILL TAKE THE MAGAZINE.
BUT HE TAUGHT US TO READ.
WE ALWAYS HAD A LIBRARY CARD.
YOU HAD TO READ, YOU CUT THE TV OFF.
IT JUST WAS THAT.
AND SO, 1967, WHEN I GRADUATED FROM HIGH SCHOOL,
WAS THE FIRST YEAR OF INTEGRATION
IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS.
BUT IT WAS A TUMULTUOUS TIME.
I CHOSE TO STAY IN MY HIGH SCHOOL.
I WAS THE BATTALION COMMANDER OF THE JUNIOR ROTC THERE,
SO I HAD LEADERSHIP POSITION.
I GRADUATED AND WENT TO AN ALL-BLACK, AN HBCU,
DILLARD UNIVERSITY IN NEW ORLEANS.
IT WAS THE TIME OF THE VIETNAM WAR.
I HAD A LOW DRAFT NUMBER
AND A VERY MEAN, RACIST DRAFT BOARD.
AND SO, THEY MADE IT VERY CLEAR
THAT THEY WOULD GET TO ME IN DUE COURSE.
IF YOU WERE WHITE, YOU HAD OTHER OPTIONS--NATIONAL GUARD
AND ALL THAT SORT OF THING,
BUT IF YOU WERE BLACK, YOU JUST DIDN'T.
AND SO, KNOWING INEVITABLY THAT AT SOME JUNCTURE
I WOULD PROBABLY GET DRAFTED, ET CETERA.
BUT WHEN I WAS IN COLLEGE, I REMEMBER WHEN THE STATS
WERE UP THERE ABOUT THE LAW SCHOOLS THIS MORNING,
THAT $100,000 WORTH OF DEBT, SO I WENT TO A PRIVATE SCHOOL,
BUT MY DAD ALWAYS TOLD US,
"DON'T WORRY ABOUT GOING TO PUBLIC--
"YOU GO WHERE YOU WANT TO GO.
YOU DO YOUR PART, AND I'LL DO MINE."
AND SO, HE NEVER TOLD US WE HAD TO GO
TO PUBLIC SCHOOL TO SAVE TUITION.
HE SAID, "YOU GO WHERE YOU CAN GO GET THE BEST EDUCATION."
I WENT TO PRIVATE UNDERGRAD, PRIVATE LAW SCHOOL,
HAD ALL THAT DEBT.
WE HAD PLENTY OF LOANS, SCHOLARSHIPS, WORK STUDY,
ALL THOSE PACKAGES AND ALL THAT.
SO, I NEVER HAD A PREMIUM SUMMER JOB.
WHEN I WAS IN COLLEGE I WORKED IN BAYFIELD INDUSTRIES
MAKING MUNITIONS, THESE MUNITIONS IN A FACTORY,
AND OTHER KIND OF MENIAL SUMMER JOB,
BUT I WORKED BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT YOU HAD TO DO
TO GET AN UNDERGRAD.
SO, WHEN I WENT TO LAW SCHOOL, BECAUSE OF THE DRAFT NUMBER,
I HAD THE SPECTER OF PERHAPS GETTING DRAFTED OUT OF SCHOOL.
I HAVE AN OLDER BROTHER WHO ACTUALLY
WENT TO LAW SCHOOL FIRST BUT HE WAS DRAFTED OUT OF LAW SCHOOL.
HE JOINED THE NAVY, WENT TO OCS.
HE LATER RETIRED AS A NAVY CAPTAIN WITH 26 YEARS IN JAG.
I DIDN'T WANT TO BE DRAFTED OUT OF SCHOOL.
AND SO, THE ARMY HAD COME UP WITH A BRAND-NEW PROGRAM,
TWO-YEAR ROTC, BUT IT WAS FOR UNDERGRADS.
BUT BECAUSE I HAD BEEN BATTALION COMMANDER
IN THE JUNIOR ROTC IN HIGH SCHOOL,
THEY GAVE ME AN EXCEPTION TO BE IN THE ROTC AT LOYOLA.
SO, I WENT TO EVIDENCE CLASS,
SITTING IN A GREEN UNIFORM WITH 150 PEOPLE IN THE CLASS,
WITH THE PROFESSOR ABLE TO POINT ME OUT TO ANSWER THE QUESTIONS.
BUT I DID ONE SUMMER AT FORT KNOX, KENTUCKY,
ONE OF THE WORST SUMMERS OF MY LIFE,
AND I DID ANOTHER SUMMER AT FORT RILEY, KANSAS,
ANOTHER WORST SUMMER OF MY LIFE.
SO, I DIDN'T HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE THE KIND OF JOBS
THAT A LOT OF LAW--YOU KNOW, WORK IN SUMMER AT LAW FIRMS.
I WAS DOING IT.
BUT BEING IN THE MILITARY WAS ONE OF
THE GREATEST EXPERIENCES THAT I HAD.
SO, WHEN I PASSED THE BAR EXAM,
I HAD HEAVY PRESSURE TO PASS THE FIRST TIME
BECAUSE I HAD AN ENTRY DATE TO GO INTO THE ARMY WAITING ON ME.
I PASSED, WENT TO THE JAG SCHOOL.
AND SO, I SERVED 3 YEARS AS A CAPTAIN IN JAG CORPS,
ONE OF THE GREATEST THINGS THAT HAPPENED TO ME.
INSTANT RESPONSIBILITY, REPRESENTING CLIENTS,
DOING COURT-MARTIALS, AND I LOVED TRIAL WORK.
AND SO, THAT'S WHEN MY LOVE FOR THE TRIAL WORK BEGAN.
GREAT RESPONSIBILITY.
GREAT DISCIPLINE.
I WOULDN'T TAKE ANYTHING-- I DON'T KNOW,
I THOUGHT I WOULDN'T TAKE ANYTHING FROM
FORT KNOX AND FORT RILEY, BUT I'M NOT TOO SURE
I WANT TO GO FOR THAT BECAUSE I HAD SOME
MEAN DRILL SERGEANTS AND ALL THAT.
BUT THE MILITARY REALLY INSTILLED DISCIPLINE,
ORGANIZATION, RESPONSIBILITY, ET CETERA,
AND I REALLY THINK IT WAS A PLATFORM
FOR A LOT OF THE THINGS THAT I'VE DONE SINCE
BECAUSE BEING IN THAT ENVIRONMENT,
THERE WAS NO TIME TO BE SCARED,
YOU'VE GOT PLENTY OF RESPONSIBILITY,
YOU JUST KIND OF GOT TO DO IT.
AND IT REALLY SHOWED ME THAT THOUGH GRADUATING
FROM AN ALL-BLACK SCHOOL WITH HAND-ME-DOWN BOOKS, ET CETERA,
THE CONFIDENCE THAT THE TEACHERS AND OTHER STUDENTS INSTILL IN ME
THAT YOU CAN DO IT, YOU CAN DO IT.
THAT CONFIDENCE JUST ALLOWED ME TO TRY ANYTHING, TO DO THAT.
I SPENT 3 YEARS IN JAG, GOT OUT,
DIDN'T WANT TO GO HOME BECAUSE OF THE PAST,
AND I ENDED UP, THOUGH, WORKING IN ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE.
I LATER WAS AN AUSA, TRIED CASES,
AND THAT WAS MY VENTURE INTO FEDERAL COURT.
LOVED TRYING CASES IN FEDERAL COURT
AND REALLY APPEARING BEFORE SOME WONDERFUL FEDERAL JUDGES.
AND SO, I SAID, "ONE OF THESE DAYS, MAYBE I'LL GET A CHANCE
TO BE A JUDGE AND ALL THAT."
BUT LONG STORY SHORT, I WAS ELECTED A STATE TRIAL JUDGE
WHEN I WAS 35 YEARS OLD.
I WAS THE FIRST BLACK ELECTED TO THAT COURT.
SPENT 7 YEARS ON THE TRIAL BENCH,
THE ABSOLUTE BEST PERIOD OF MY PROFESSIONAL LIFE,
TRYING CASES WITH LAWYERS, AND I LOVED THE TRIALS,
AND I THINK THOSE YEARS AS A TRIAL JUDGE
HELPED MAKE ME BE A BETTER APPELLATE JUDGE.
I SPENT 3 YEARS ON THE APPELLATE COURT
BEFORE COMING TO THE FEDERAL COURT.
AND THERE WAS ANOTHER PERSON FOR A SEAT ON THE FEDERAL COURT,
BUT THE SENIOR SENATOR WAS FROM SHREVEPORT,
AND YOU GET ONE OF THESE CALLS THAT SAY, "THERE'S A SEAT OPEN.
WOULD YOU LIKE TO BE A FEDERAL JUDGE?"
"HUH? YEAH. REALLY?"
SO, I NEVER HAD--I WAS QUALIFIED, MOVED THROUGH,
99-TO-NOTHING, NONE OF ALL THESE QUESTIONS,
NO LITMUS TEST, NO NOTHING, AND SO,
STRAIGHT ON THROUGH THE DEAL AND HERE I AM.
JOHNSON: YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T FOCUS ON THE RACISM.
LIKE I SAID, I WAS AT LSU, 1965 TO 1968.
THAT WAS THE SUMMER THAT-- WELL, THE SPRING, REALLY,
THAT DR. MARTIN LUTHER KING WAS ASSASSINATED.
AND SO, THEY ALWAYS WANT TO KNOW,
"WELL, TELL US SOME OF YOUR LSU STORIES."
BUT, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT GOING TO DREDGE UP ALL--
I DON'T REALLY NEED TO FEED ON RACISM
FROM 40 YEARS AGO OR SLIGHTS OR--
MY FOCUS WHEN I TALK ABOUT LSU,
I'M GOING TO TELL YOU ABOUT SOMEBODY
WHO WAS THERE TO HELP ME.
I'M GOING TO TELL YOU ABOUT MARGARET O'MEARA,
WHO MADE SURE I HAD NOTES.
I MEAN, THE FRAT BOYS HAD THEIR POOP SHEETS
AND I HAD EVERY NOTE I NEEDED
BECAUSE MARGARET O'MEARA MADE SURE I DID.
AND SO, YOU FOCUS ON THE POSITIVE
AND YOU MOVE FORWARD BECAUSE IF YOU KEEP--
AND ONE OF MY PROFESSORS TOLD ME THERE,
"DON'T BE A MARTYR OR A VICTIM.
JUST DO WHAT YOU NEED TO DO AND MOVE FORWARD."
AND YOU'VE GOT TO HAVE HOPE.
AND IF YOU COME FROM A FAMILY OF FAITH--
I COME FROM A FAMILY OF BAPTIST PREACHERS,
MY GRANDFATHER WAS SUPERINTENDENT
OF THE SUNDAY SCHOOL, AND WE ALL WENT TO CHURCH,
WE'RE CHURCH PEOPLE, AND SO WE'RE PEOPLE OF FAITH.
AND, YOU KNOW, WE BELIEVE IN AMERICA.
GREGORY: WHERE I AM, I'M THE ONLY JUDGE
IN THE FOURTH CIRCUIT HOME RICHMOND,
AND THAT BUILDING I'M IN WAS BUILT IN 1858,
AND IT WAS THE TREASURY OF THE CONFEDERACY,
AND [INAUDIBLE] DAVIS HAD AN OFFICE IN THAT BUILDING,
AND I LOOK OUT THE WINDOW IN THE BACKSIDE--
JUDGE TRAXLER KNOWS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT--
BANK STREET, AND YOU SEE THE CAPITOL
THAT WAS DESIGNED BY THOMAS JEFFERSON.
AND YOU SEE THESE TWO BUILDINGS SPEAK TO EACH OTHER ACROSS TIME.
AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT SORT OF ANCHORS ME
IN THE SENSE THAT WHAT DR. KING TALKED ABOUT,
THE MORAL ARC OF THE UNIVERSE, IT BENDS TOWARD JUSTICE.
I MEAN, SO THOSE ARE THE KIND OF THINGS THAT TETHER ME.
AND ONE THING I'D JUST SAY ABOUT THE COURT.
THE FIRST TIME I WENT INTO THE BUILDING I'M IN NOW
WAS IN 1980 OR SO.
I WAS WORKING AT A BIG FIRM,
AND THEY HAD THE LAWYERS COME DOWN
AND DO TRIAL WORK TO GET EXPERIENCE,
SO I WAS COURT APPOINTED TO REPRESENT
THIS WOMAN FROM THE SOUTH, A WHITE WOMAN.
I DIDN'T KNOW HER, SHE DIDN'T KNOW ME.
SO I WENT DOWN THERE AND I FIGURED OUT WHO SHE WAS
AND I WALKED UP AND INTRODUCED MYSELF.
I SAID, "I'M YOUR LAWYER."
HER SPIRIT DROPPED FROM HER EYES TO HER FEET PRECIPITOUSLY. SHOO!
IT WAS LIKE, "OH, MY GOODNESS.
"THE LAWYER THEY APPOINTED ME.
"I MEAN, JUST LOCK ME UP NOW.
JUST GO AHEAD. WE DON'T NEED A TRIAL."
BUT THE POINT WAS I HAD AN ASSIGNMENT,
AND THAT'S WHAT MY PARENTS TAUGHT ME--
"YOU HAVE AN ASSIGNMENT, AND IT CANNOT BE CHANGED
"BECAUSE OTHER PEOPLE DON'T SEE WHO YOU ARE
AND UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU BRING TO THE TABLE."
THAT'S WHAT ANCHORS ME.
LONG STORY SHORT, WE HAD A GREAT EXPERIENCE.
SHE WROTE ME A WONDERFUL LETTER.
BUT NOW I THINK ABOUT IT, IN THAT SAME LOBBY,
MY NAME IS ON THE ROSTER AS THE CHIEF JUDGE OF THE COURT,
BUT THAT'S BECAUSE PEOPLE NEVER GAVE UP AND FOUGHT HARD,
AND THAT'S, JUDGE FOGEL, WHAT KEEPS ME ANCHORED IN THAT SENSE.
COLE: AS WITH SOME OF MY COLLEAGUES HERE,
FOR THE PERIOD I LIVED IN BIRMINGHAM,
I ATTENDED FROM FIRST THROUGH SIXTH GRADE
AN ALL-BLACK ELEMENTARY SCHOOL.
WE HAD HAND-ME-DOWN BOOKS. THEY WERE,
AS I THINK MAYBE JUDGE STEWART SAID, TATTERED AND TORN,
AND MANY PEOPLE THAT USED THEM BEFORE WE HAD.
BUT OUR TEACHERS WERE COMMITTED AND ABSOLUTELY DEDICATED,
ALL BLACK TEACHERS, AND THEY WERE DISCIPLINED
IN TERMS OF INSTRUCTION AND VERY MUCH COMMITTED
TO THEIR STUDENTS LEARNING WHAT WE NEEDED TO LEARN.
SO, I FEEL AS THOUGH I GOT A GREAT EDUCATION
AT WILKERSON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL IN BIRMINGHAM.
AND THIS MAY BE TRUE FOR A LOT OF US--
IF YOU GOT IN TROUBLE AT SCHOOL, YOU GET IN TROUBLE AT HOME,
BECAUSE THE TEACHER WOULD CALL THE HOUSE,
SO YOU GET IN TROUBLE TWICE.
THE TEACHERS WERE THAT KIND OF COMMITTED TO OUR SUCCESS.
UNLIKE MY COLLEAGUES, I--
MY PARENTS MOVED TO NEW HAVEN, CONNECTICUT
WHEN I WAS--JUST BEFORE HIGH SCHOOL
AND I ATTENDED PREDOMINANTLY WHITE SCHOOLS
FROM THAT POINT FORWARD AND WENT OFF TO
A PREDOMINANTLY WHITE UNIVERSITY, TUFTS UNIVERSITY,
IN 1968 OUTSIDE OF BOSTON.
YOU MAY RECALL THAT WAS THE YEAR THAT
DR. KING AND ROBERT KENNEDY WERE ASSASSINATED,
YOU GOT THE DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL CONVENTION IN CHICAGO,
AND ALL THE VIOLENCE.
OUR SOCIETY IN GENERAL
WAS IN TURMOIL WITH THE RIOTS, THE DEMONSTRATIONS ON CAMPUSES.
I THINK UP UNTIL 1966, '67,
CAMPUSES HAD BEEN RELATIVELY CALM PLACES,
AS MUCH AS THEY CAN BE WITH 18- TO 22-YEAR-OLDS.
WHEN I ARRIVED AT TUFTS UNIVERSITY IN 1968,
THERE WERE, I THINK, ABOUT 10 BLACK STUDENTS THERE
AND MY CLASS HAD 49.
AND IT WAS A VERY CHALLENGING TIME FOR THE UNIVERSITY
TO ABSORB THAT MANY BLACK STUDENTS,
MANY OF WHOM CAME FROM VERY
ECONOMICALLY DEPRESSED BACKGROUNDS,
VERY BRIGHT STUDENTS AND IN THE MIDST OF WHAT HAD BEEN
A MUCH MORE HOMOGENOUS ENVIRONMENT.
JUDGE ERIC WASHINGTON, WHO'S HERE,
FOLLOWED ME A COUPLE YEARS LATER,
AND WE WERE JUST SAYING LAST NIGHT THAT IN SOME WAYS
WE FEEL THAT WE HELPED TEACH THE UNIVERSITY
AS MUCH AS THEY TAUGHT US.
BUT I LEARNED A LOT THERE ABOUT RESILIENCE
BECAUSE I THINK PROBABLY IF I HAD ATTENDED
A HISTORICALLY BLACK UNIVERSITY AS MY PARENTS DID,
AND AS THEY WANTED ME TO DO INITIALLY,
IT MAY HAVE BEEN A LITTLE BIT MORE OF A NURTURING ENVIRONMENT,
BUT WE HAD TO BE RESILIENT,
THOSE 49 OF US WHO ARRIVED AT THE TUFTS CAMPUS
IN SEPTEMBER OF 1968.
FOGEL: WE'VE HEARD ABOUT YOUR LIFE CHALLENGES
AND I THINK THAT REALLY SAYS A LOT ABOUT
WHO EACH OF YOU IS AND HAS BECOME AS A PERSON.
BUT IN YOUR CURRENT ROLE OR IN YOUR LEGAL CAREER,
IF YOU WANT TO BE A LITTLE BIT BROADER,
WHAT HAS BEEN THE BIGGEST
PROFESSIONAL CHALLENGE YOU'VE FACED?
WHAT HAS BEEN THE HARDEST THING YOU'VE HAD TO DEAL WITH?
JOHNSON: WHAT I'M STRUGGLING WITH NOW IS THE FACT
THAT LOUISIANA IS NUMBER ONE IN THE NATION
IN TERMS OF THE RATES OF INCARCERATION.
WE HAVE THE PEW TRUST INVOLVED IN THE STATE NOW
ASSISTING US WITH THIS AND I HAVE REACHED OUT
TO WILLIAM HUBBARD AND OTHER FOLK
TO TALK ABOUT INCARCERATION.
IN FACT, WHEN HUBBARD WAS PRESIDENT OF THE ABA,
HE CAME DOWN TO LOUISIANA TO WORK WITH US
AND TELL US WHAT THEY'VE BEEN DOING IN SOUTH CAROLINA.
BUT WE INCARCERATE MORE PEOPLE THAN CHINA, IRAN,
AND 100 OTHER NATIONS THAT WE THINK ARE WORSE THAN WE ARE.
THE UNITED STATES INCARCERATES MORE PEOPLE THAN ANYBODY ELSE
AND LOUISIANA IS NUMBER ONE IN THE NATION.
TO BE A CHIEF JUSTICE OF THE LOUISIANA SUPREME COURT
AND HAVE A STATISTIC LIKE THAT, THAT'S NOTHING TO BE PROUD OF,
AND SO THAT'S MORE OF A BURDEN TO ME THAN ANYTHING ELSE.
AND SO, IF YOU ASK ME WHAT MY CHALLENGE IS,
MY CHALLENGE IS BETWEEN NOW AND 2020,
WHEN I LEAVE THE COURT.
I SAID TO SECRETARY LEBLANC,
WHO'S SECRETARY OF DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS,
"I'D LIKE TO BE NUMBER TWO OR NUMBER 3.
I DON'T WANT TO BE NUMBER ONE IN THE NATION."
AND IT'S A BURDEN TO BE A PART OF THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM THIS LONG
AND YOU TALK WITH YOUNG BLACK MEN
AND THEY TALK ABOUT THE DISPARITIES AND THE INJUSTICES
AND I'M A PART OF IT.
JUST LOOK AT THE STATISTICS FROM OUR WEBSITE,
DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS, IT'S ALL THERE.
MOSTLY AFRICAN AMERICAN MEN,
AND WE'VE LOCKED THEM UP LONG TERM,
SOMETIMES WITH MULTIPLE BILLING THEM
WITH SMALL AMOUNTS OF DRUGS, A FEW MARIJUANA CIGARETTES
[INAUDIBLE],
AND SOMETIMES YOU STOP THEM, SHAKE THEM DOWN,
THEY'RE RIDING A BICYCLE OR A COUPLE OF THEM
STANDING ON THE CORNER, THEY'VE GOT A MARIJUANA CIGARETTE.
SO, I GUESS THAT IS MY CHALLENGE.
I FEEL MY COMMITMENT HAS ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT FUNDAMENTAL FAIRNESS
AND I WANT TO LEAVE A SYSTEM THAT'S A LITTLE BIT IMPROVED
IN TERMS OF THAT FAIRNESS ISSUE.
STEWART: BEING CHIEF JUDGE IS A BIG DEAL
TO A LOT OF PEOPLE AND UNTIL YOU'RE THE CHIEF JUDGE,
YOU DON'T REALLY REALIZE ALL THAT GOES WITH IT.
I THINK THE THREE OF US WHO ARE CHIEF KNOW,
I SIT THE SAME NUMBER OF TIMES AS ALL MY COLLEAGUES,
7 TIMES A YEAR, SO I STILL HEAR CASES, ET CETERA,
AND YET AT LEAST 75% OF MY TIME
IS DEALING WITH NON-CASE-RELATED MATTERS.
AND SO, I HAVE A HUGE CIRCUIT.
TEXAS IS A BIG CUSTOMER.
I HAVE 9 JUDICIAL DISTRICTS,
WHICH MEANS I HAVE 9 CHIEF DISTRICT JUDGES.
I HAVE 105 COURTHOUSES, 3,218 TOTAL SUPPORT PEOPLE IN IT.
IT'S A HUGE OPERATION, VERY GEOGRAPHICALLY DISPERSED.
AND ONCE YOU BECOME CHIEF JUDGE,
YOU REALIZE NOT ONLY HOW EXPANSIVE IT IS
BUT ALL THE ISSUES THAT BUBBLE UP
TO THE CHIEF JUDGE TO DEAL WITH.
AND SO, MANAGING THE TIME ELEMENT
IN TERMS OF DEALING WITH ALL THAT
AS WELL AS THE RELATIONSHIPS AND SO FORTH ON MY OWN COURT,
THE 17 JUDGES ON MY COURT, BUT IT'S MORE THE CHIEF JUDGE.
A LOT OF WHAT WE DO DEALS NOT WITH THE FIFTH CIRCUIT
BUT IT'S WITH PRESIDING OVER THE JUDICIAL COUNCIL,
IT'S BEING A PARTICIPANT IN THE JUDICIAL CONFERENCE
OF THE UNITED STATES, IT'S SERVING ON COMMITTEES,
IT'S GOING OUT INTO THE CIRCUIT,
IT'S GOING TO THE BORDER, IT'S DEALING WITH ISSUES
THAT THE DISTRICT COURTS HAVE.
AND SO, THERE ARE SO MANY THINGS THAT BUBBLE UP,
IT'S A 24/7 CONSTANCY THAT WHEN YOU'RE A REGULAR CIRCUIT JUDGE
YOU DON'T SEE THAT.
YOU JUST DON'T.
YOU DEAL WITH YOUR CASES.
BUT ONCE YOU BECOME CHIEF, IT'S THERE BIG TIME.
SO, EVEN BEING HERE--I DOUBT THE THREE OF US WHILE HERE,
WE'VE BEEN SITTING BACK THERE MANAGING.
WE'VE BEEN LISTENING TO WHAT'S BEEN GOING ON
BUT WE HAVE LITERALLY BEEN-- I'VE BEEN ON THE PHONE
WITH THE CIRCUIT EXECUTIVE THIS MORNING.
ROGER AND I ARE TALKING.
SO, IT'S A FULL TILT.
AND SO, IT'S A CHALLENGE TO MANAGE THE EXPECTATIONS,
TO DEAL WITH THE VARIOUS CONSTITUENCIES
THAT ARE INVOLVED IN TERMS OF THE DISTRICT JUDGES,
YET AT THE SAME TIME YOU HAVE A HUGE COLLECTION
OF EXTREMELY SMART...
TAUT EGO COLLEAGUES.
FOGEL: CHOOSE YOUR WORDS CAREFULLY.
STEWART: I AM.
WHEN YOU GET ROOMS FULL OF VERY, VERY SMART PEOPLE,
FINISHED NUMBER ONE IN THEIR CLASS,
NEVER BEEN WRONG ONCE IN THEIR LIFE,
AND WHEN YOU'VE GOT TO MANAGE THE DISCUSSIONS, THE EGOS,
BUT YET TRY TO KEEP THE RELATIONSHIPS
AND TRY TO DO IT AS EVEN-HANDEDLY AS YOU CAN,
THAT IS A CHALLENGE ON AN ONGOING BASIS.
COLE: BEING CHIEF IS PROBABLY MY BIGGEST
PROFESSIONAL CHALLENGE.
IT WAS TOUGH BECOMING A PARTNER IN A LAW FIRM
THAT HAD NEVER HAD A BLACK PARTNER BEFORE.
THERE WAS A LOT OF PRESSURE I FELT ON ME TO SUCCEED.
I DIDN'T WANT TO FAIL.
THERE WERE BLACK ASSOCIATES IN THE FIRM
WHO WERE COMING UP THROUGH THE RANKS,
AND THE FIRM HAD ALWAYS BEEN EMINENTLY FAIR TO ME AND SAID,
"IF YOU EARN THE PRIVILEGE OF BECOMING A PARTNER, YOU WILL,
BUT IT WILL BE IRRESPECTIVE OF RACE."
AND THAT'S HOW I VIEWED IT.
I TOOK THEM AT THEIR WORD AND THEY WERE TRUE TO THEIR WORD
AND BECAME A PARTNER THERE AND ENJOYED IT.
BUT THAT WAS A CHALLENGE BACK IN THE EARLY 1980s.
STEWART: I THINK THE BEST PART OF THE JOB
WE HAVE AS A FEDERAL JUDGE ARE THE LAW CLERKS THAT WE EMPLOY.
I'VE HAD 74 LAW CLERKS, WHO KNOWS HOW MANY INTERNS,
BUT I TRY TO MENTION TO THEM AND IMPRESS UPON THEM
BECAUSE I BELIEVE THERE'S ONLY SO MUCH
ME OR ROGER BURNETT OR GUY CAN DO.
BUT OUR OBLIGATION IS TO PLANT SOME SEEDS
IN THOSE LAW CLERKS AND YOUNG LAWYERS
BECAUSE THEY NEED TO BE THE AMBASSADORS
FOR THE IMPORTANCE OF THE RULE OF LAW,
THE INDEPENDENCE OF THE JUDICIARY,
SOLVING A LOT OF THESE INTRACTABLE PROBLEMS
THAT WE CAN'T DO.
SO, WHILE BEING CHIEF JUDGE HAS ITS POTHOLES,
IT IS A POSITION OF TREMENDOUS OPPORTUNITY TO DO GOOD.
GREGORY: BUT IN THE END, IT'S NOT THE VICTORIES,
IT'S THE STRUGGLE THAT BINDS US.
AND I THINK THAT STRUGGLE IS ONE THAT WE ALL DO
WITH--IN ESSENCE WITH ETHNICS, WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE,
OR GENDER, WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE.
AS AMERICANS WE STRUGGLE, BUT HOPEFULLY THIS IDEAL
THAT WE STILL TETHER OURSELVES TO IT.
SO, I THINK THE UNION IS HOPEFUL.
AND, JUDGE FOGEL, YOU KNOW WHERE THE HOPE
CAME THE MOST FOR ME?
I WILL SAY THIS, IN TERMS OF
HAVING A GLIMPSE OF SOMETHING,
A LIGHT THAT NO DARKNESS COULD OBSCURE,
AND THAT WAS WHEN I WAS 10 YEARS OLD,
IF I CAN JUST FAST FORWARD, AND I'M NOT GOING
TO TELL YOU HOW IT HAPPENED, BUT JUST REMEMBER
THAT IT WAS STUPIDITY ON STEROIDS.
BUT I INJURED MY EYE WHEN I WAS AT HOME ALONE.
MY MOM CAME AND SHE SAID, "WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU, BOY?"
I TRIED TO HIDE IT FROM HER AND I WAS TEARING,
BUT IT REALLY WASN'T TEARS.
BUT ANYWAY, LONG STORY SHORT,
FINALLY SHE TAKES ME TO THE HOSPITAL, THE ER,
THEY LOOK AT MY EYE, AND THEY'RE ABOUT TO RELEASE ME
AND SAY, "HE'S FINE. GO HOME,"
BUT IT JUST SO HAPPENED THAT A YOUNG WHITE OPHTHALMOLOGIST
WAS COMING THROUGH, AND I DON'T KNOW WHETHER HE HAD
JUST FINISHED A LONG SHIFT OF 16 HOURS OR WHATEVER,
BUT HE SAID, "LET ME SEE THAT BOY'S EYE."
AND HE LOOKED AT ME AND HE SAID, "HIS EYEBALL IS CRACKED.
HE'LL BE BLIND IF HE DOESN'T HAVE SURGERY SOON."
AND THE NURSE LOOKED AT HIM AND THEN SHE SAID,
"THERE'S NO ROOM FOR HIM."
AND HE LOOKED AT HER AND SAID,
"LISTEN, THIS BOY IS GOING INTO SURGERY AT MIDNIGHT,
AND YOU BETTER HAVE A PLACE FOR HIM."
AND THE NEXT MORNING, I WOKE UP, MY MOM AND DAD AT MY BEDSIDE,
AND THERE WERE 7 OTHER EMPTY BEDS IN THAT BIG ROOM.
THEY HAD RUN OUT OF ROOM ON THE SIDE DESIGNATED FOR ME.
THAT'S WHAT GIVES ME HOPE, THAT YOUNG WHITE OPHTHALMOLOGIST
AT 10 YEARS OLD GAVE ME THE GLANCE OF A LIGHT
THAT NO DARKNESS CAN OBSCURE.
AND EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE A LONG WAYS TO GO
AND MANY MILES BEFORE WE SLEEP, AS FROST MIGHT SAY,
I THINK WE HAVE THE FRAMEWORK.
EVEN THOUGH OUR FOUNDERS DIDN'T LIVE IT
BUT THEY GAVE A MATRIX FOR WHICH WE MIGHT LIVE THROUGH THAT.
AND I BELIEVE THAT WE'RE GOING TO BE OK,
BUT THAT'S GOING TO BE SOME DIFFICULT DAYS AHEAD,
BUT I HAVE A LOT OF HOPE THAT WE WILL.
FOGEL: THANK YOU. YES.
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