HEFFNER: I'm Alexander Heffner, your host on The Open Mind.
What is the future for free press and speech
in the Trump administration?
Joining me today to consider is executive
director of the Committee to Protect Journalists, Joel Simon.
His organization is on the front lines
of defending press freedom here at home and around the globe.
At the helm of the CPJ since 2006,
and previously a freelance journalist
in Latin America, Simon has led its expansion,
helping to launch the global campaign against
impunity, establish a journalist assistance
program, and spearhead a dedicated technology arm.
At CPJ's 2016 International Press
Freedom Awards, accepting a lifetime achievement
prize, CNN veteran international
correspondent Christiane Amanpour delivered
a stirring acceptance speech.
"Journalism faces an existential crisis,
a threat to the very relevance of our profession.
We must also fight against a post-values world,
being truthful, not neutral."
Amanpour further cited that social media and fake news
has undermined democracy in America,
so I must ask Joel to begin how he would
characterize the chilling effect on the
Fourth Estate since election day.
And there is an upside to that too.
SIMON: Well I think that really the tone was set
during the campaign, the, the Trump campaign,
you know, and I, and I think that he,
it's not uncommon for politicians to run
campaigns against the press,
that's, that's, that's something we've seen
many times before.
But Trump took the vilification of the media
to a completely different level.
Um, the hostility, the systematic calling out,
the calling out of individual journalists,
this resulted in a flurry of um,
online harassment, of trolling of journalists.
He's threatened to sue journalists,
to make it easier to sue journalists so um,
it was a campaign of, of unrelenting hostility
towards the media and I think that has made the
media very anxious about what is coming next.
HEFFNER: There was an extent,
an uncomfortable degree to which Trump was maligning
journalists...
SIMON: Yeah.
HEFFNER: In the way that you might cast aside an opponent.
In fact the fervor with which his supporters
openly criticized the media was in some
instances more ferocious than his,
their criticism of his opponent.
SIMON: Yeah well that's, again if,
you know, one way of thinking about that
is to look at it globally.
And running campaigns against the media as an
institution that represents the interests
of the entrenched elites, that is a electoral
practice that you see in many parts of the world
that are less democratic.
Hugo Chavez for example, that was,
that was absolutely central to his campaign
and you know, even Putin, President Putin of Russia,
uh, uh, Erdogan in Turkey, these are all leaders who
have run electoral campaigns and won
electoral campaigns where they really focused on the
media and their critique of the media,
which is one that Trump has also embraced,
is that it represents a sort of elite,
entrenched interests and not uh,
a kind of objective, neutral search for truth.
HEFFNER: And Christiane's response to that at your
gala was that that is a misreading of what's
actually happening.
SIMON: Well it's, it's dangerous,
it's dangerous, because you know,
it's, it's valid to cr—criticize the media's
performance in this country or anywhere
in the world, um, the, the media as an institution
is flawed, uh, but so are, so is every institution
inside government and outside government,
but the role of media is central because it's an
independent, it's, it has to be powerful enough to
stand up to powerful, vested interests inside
and outside the government and hold them to account.
And that's a danger—it doesn't always perform
that role perfectly but it has to be given the
opportunity to do it, and creating an environment
in which the media is harassed and vilified
and threatened makes that process more difficult
and that is true in this country and that is true
everywhere in the world.
HEFFNER: But the danger arises in part,
don't you think Joel, from this idea of post-fact,
post-values, post-democracy even,
um, at the heart of her critique of American
journalists was that there was a loss of focus.
There was a false sense of balance,
neutrality equivalency that gave voice to Trump's
electoral strategy that enabled him,
in effect, Christiane's own network until
recently had been that bully pulpit,
confusing those rallies for the truth.
How do we work our way back from that endless
B-roll and what already now in the beginning of
his transition and administration is that
same kind of post-factual soap opera
of Shakespearean narrative?
SIMON: Yeah, well I mean I think,
I think one challenge that we face is when people
talk about "the media." Everyone in their own mind
has the con—a con—a different conception and
the media is a, ha—really has to be an incredibly
diverse, broad ecosystem that includes media that
embraces those values, the ones you describe of you
know, we are here to call the things as we see it,
you know, we're, we're, we,
we, we, we represent both sides but we call things
as we see it and you can have like,
partisan media as well.
That's part of, part of a broad and healthy media ecosystem.
So they're different roles for different kinds of
media and of course the media has become
much more diverse because new technologies have
opened up this space.
That is all something we need to sort out,
it's difficult to sort out.
But what's unhealthy, and what's destructive,
and what, what, what really concerns me,
is that into this diverse and complex ecosystem,
it's very easy to inject false news.
News that is, you know, is deliberately false,
deliberately misleading.
Um, it's designed to confuse and demoralize
people so that they, they don't engage.
And you know, there's been a lot of discussion about,
you know, the possibility that Russia's involved in
these efforts and, and certainly they are in some
parts of the world, but let's acknowledge that to
a certain extent, some of this false news is coming
from uh, our president-elect, right?
I mean he's, he's, um, uh, tweeting out things
that are simply not true.
And so that is part of this complex ecosystem
in which anyone can participate,
everyone is the media, some of the information
we get is important and accurate and helps create
accountability, and some of it is false,
and sorting that out is incredibly difficult and complex.
HEFFNER: We've spoken over the course of
the campaign about a Murrow moment...
SIMON: Mm-hmm.
HEFFNER: Not every story has a multiplicity of sides
or even two sides and that's Christiane's point.
SIMON: Right.
HEFFNER: But I think what she is not necessarily
recognizing, and I want to hear your blueprint
for the journalistic future here,
and the toolkit that we ought to be focused on to
protect journalism in this country is,
is the fact that there were deep investigations
of the President-elect's career that did not really
result in changes in public opinion.
SIMON: First let's talk about what the challenges
the media face as an institution.
There, there's never going to be another Murrow
moment, because the reason you had a Murrow moment is
you had a handful of journalists,
whether they were Murrow of Cronkite or Tom Brokaw
in his day that everybody watched and everyone paid
attention to and they had this platform and they
could make a pronouncement,
like you know, Cronkite expressing,
um, his opposition to the Vietnam War,
which remember, was an editorial moment,
um, everyone talks about impartiality but that was
hardly impartial.
Um, but all eyeballs were on Walter Cronkite,
or on Edward R. Murrow. Now the media is fractured.
It's obviously fractured. It's diverse.
We've just, you know, we just talked about so
there's no single individual program,
network that has the capability to mobilize
public opinion in the same way.
And um, you know, but you're right,
there's, during the campaign there was a lot
of very deep, informed investigative reporting
that took place, that was, that was excellent
but the, it didn't reach audiences in the same way.
And I, so but I think when you look at what
the challenges are, are the challenges in the
journalism itself or the delivery system?
And I would say they're more in the
delivery system because there was excellent
journalism but the way in which,
the way in which people access that information,
it's more diverse and it's more fractured.
Now going back to your point about the language
that Trump, Trump uses to criticize the media,
which is, which is you know,
something that, that's potentially chilling,
I do think it, it does echo the kinds of
expressions you hear from authoritarian leaders in
other parts of the world, without question
that kind of systematic attack on you know,
questioning of journalism as an institution,
singling out of individual reporters,
that intimidating kind of language,
threats to change the legal environment,
that really does send a chilling message.
HEFFNER: Well you talk about the protecting
the integrity of the craft...
SIMON: Yes.
HEFFNER: But also acknowledging the
responsibility of these not-so-third party vendors sometimes...
SIMON: Mm-hmm.
HEFFNER: Making money off of misinformation.
I've called it the monetization of fraud in a lot of instances
but let's talk more intimately about the reputation.
The reputation of journalists because the
way in which we view the profession going forward
is gonna be I think enormously influential in
how the body politic does see us and as an example I
wanted to, to mention this because the upside of that
chilling effect that we, that may be imminent is
public media have received an outpouring of support in,
in dollars and morale since Donald Trump's election.
And I relate that, and I wonder if this is in your
mind instrumental to your mission of protecting
journalists, but I connect that to taking the money
motive imperative out of the profession so that
journalists can't be accused of the kind of
yellow journalism, um, and clickbait that has,
that has fairly maligned the profession.
SIMON: Yeah I mean I, I think that people,
you know, I think, I think you have to look at like
the broader kind of uh, electorate, right?
So there are many, many people in this country who
are deeply passionate and committed to accessing
independent information that professional
journalists, uh, produce and who,
in whom they have confidence to make
informed judgments about what's newsworthy and you
know, provide the information they need.
Those people are making personal investments in
the media in which they believe,
so public media is certainly an example of
media that does this accountability journalism.
But I, but how broadly, how deep that pool is,
is everyone, you know, I mean putting their money there?
I, I doubt it.
And there are many people out there who,
you know, don't value that kind of,
that kind of media and get their information from
other sources, uh, who may be less informed news
consumers, so they may not be even aware that they're
reading information that's false and,
and that's misleading.
So I, I think that there's no question that the
people who value this kind of information are
doubling down on that investment,
but the question I have is how broad a segment of the
American public does that represent?
HEFFNER: Beyond subscribing to your local
newspaper, and we've seen a surge too in the
Washington Post and the New York Times subscription...
SIMON: Right. Which I would call national newspapers...
HEFFNER: Right, local too.
SIMON: But local newspapers are re—yeah.
HEFFNER: But beyond that, um,
and valuing what has been the devaluation of this
currency, this profession, what do you suggest
is the most fundamental tool to protect journalists in
this country right now?
SIMON: Well I think we can go back to what Christiane said.
I mean I, I think that there are huge challenges,
there's an existential crisis, I absolutely agree with her.
But journalists have to believe in their mission.
They, they, they can't be intimidated and,
and I think having a global perspective
on this issue right now is critical,
you know, when at that same dinner where
Christiane spoke, we honored journalists
from Turkey who'd been in jail.
We honored, uh, a journalist from Egypt
who's currently in jail and who we're trying to,
to win, uh, his freedom, a photographer.
We honored a journalist from India who had been threatened.
We honored a journalist from El Salvador
who'd been threatened.
Now these are people who believe so deeply
in what they do as journalists that it's valuable,
that it matters, that they're willing to risk
their lives and liberty.
American journalists at this point don't face
those kinds of challenges, but we have to have the
same sort of confidence that what we do matters
and, and, and sort of recommit to those values.
At the same time, I think we have to stand up as an
industry, as individual journalists when somebody
like Trump in a position of power challenges
the validity of what we do and says we're failing
and says, you know, we're irrelevant,
um, we have to, we have to not lose confidence
and this is something I say, um,
you know, not just to American journalists,
and I think we've been talking a lot about
American journalists, but there's a,
there's a global media ecosystem that we're a part of.
We don't exist in isolation.
The, the work that journalists do in this
country connects to the work that journalists
do around the world. We share information.
We're part of a global information ecosystem
called the internet.
And so what journalists do in China,
what journalists do in Russia,
what journalists do in Mexico matters to us
and what we do matters tremendously to them.
HEFFNER: We've heard in these last months this
pretty constant refrain of don't,
we're normalizing certain kinds of behavior here.
And I would suggest that there is a new normal.
SIMON: Mm-hmm.
HEFFNER: And that normalization is a greater
tolerance for the kind of totalitarian if
magnanimous, um, leadership,
that kind of clenched fist nativism that is globally
the populist trend against the corporate elites.
SIMON: But I don't think Americans are cynical
about the value of free speech and press freedom
and the First Amendment.
I mean I think they still re—recognize that,
that, that it's an essential value,
it's a defining value.
And so I think to the extent that,
you know, our President-elect is um,
attacking in, you know, the media as an
institution, you know, there's,
there's some sympathy for that,
but I think when he starts suggesting that the,
the, the um, uh, the right to express your ideas,
whether as an individual or through the media,
when he calls those values into question,
I, I think pe—I think people,
people will push back against that.
But we have to also recognize that the,
you know, the, the, the best hope we have
for accountability in this new administration,
you know, where we have a, uh,
both houses of Congress controlled by the same
party that controls the executive branch is real
accountability journalism, is an independent
Fourth Estate that holds the administration to account.
I think there are many people in this country
who really want the media to play that role,
expect it to play the role, that role.
Expect it to be pressured and threatened and,
and face challenges, but to do its job.
And I think we can take, again,
looking at this globally, and I'm not comparing the
challenges that, that journalists face in this
country to the challenges that journalists face in,
in countries like Turkey or like Russia,
or, or China where you have,
you know, authoritarian structures,
um, but journalists, there stand up and fight
because they believe so passionately that the role
they play is instrumental, is, is, is essential.
And, and I think that American journalists
should take confidence, or take stock of the fact
that so many journalists around the world
are willing to take those risks because they so
deeply believe, uh, in the ethos of, of this profession.
HEFFNER: Despite having arguably the most robust
Fourth Estate on the planet,
the most journalists, the most news bureaus,
the advantage seems to be uh,
right now in the hands of sort of the false news
makers as opposed to the genuine truthtellers.
And, and I think for advanced democracies,
or what we thought of as advanced democracies,
technology has more than any other factor led to
the creation of this post-truth age.
SIMON: Yeah, no question.
I mean the technology has so complicated,
uh, the media environment, you know,
on a global level, as I said,
we've created a kind of unified information
ecosystem, a glo—a shared global resource which
you know, everyone's got access if they have a free
and open internet to the same information
as anyone else anywhere else in the world.
And of course there are many governments
that are threatened by this that seek to restrict,
uh, access to the internet,
China foremost among them which has constructed,
uh, you know, what's called the great firewall
and limits access.
Uh, but, but many countries around the world
are emulating that model and seeking to assert
a sovereignty over the information space
within their own borders.
Of course there's, the technology has disrupted
the economic model, so these institutions,
uh, which were, you know, once strong and robust,
are now uh, less strong and less robust,
less economically secure.
Um, then you have what, what some people refer to
as disintermediation which means that you know,
anyone can, can essentially,
um, speak to the public, whether it's a
presidential candidate or uh,
a terrorist organization like the Islamic State
by using, um, this new technology,
and so journalists who were once essential,
uh, to communicating to a mass audience are less
essential and in places like Syria and Mexico
where there are criminal organizations and,
and, and terrorist organizations,
journalists who were once sort of intermediaries
through which information was conveyed,
they're now targets. They're now targets.
They're being hunted down and killed,
they're being killed in record numbers.
Um, and the final point I'll make about technology
is that it, and the way it's transformed
information is that it's so incredibly powerful
and disruptive and we've seen that take place in you
know, the color revolutions that took
place in, in Eastern Europe and the,
the Arab Spring, that governments are deeply
aware of what, what the threat posed by
i—independent information.
And that's why they're cracking down.
And that's why we're also seeing record numbers
of journalists being jailed around the world.
So it's a very complex, uh,
pivotal moment for global information,
uh, and the challenges ahead of us are,
are, are very significant.
HEFFNER: What can we learn from the experience
of journalists who don't live in the same free society
that we do in navigating this particular moment?
SIMON: You know, I, I think that there,
there are, there's the, there's the complex answer
and the easy answer.
And I, I'm going to give the easy answer,
which is, which is to reinforce a point I've
already made, which is that journalism matters.
Independent information, uh,
reported through a kind of painstaking process of
verification, uh, expressing opinions based
on a for—informed analysis,
contributing to a lively and robust public debate,
demanding accountability from those in power,
um, those are essential roles that journalists
and the media as an institution must perform.
And right now there is a feeling of demoralization
of are we irrelevant, does this matter?
Are people listening to us, are people hearing us, and,
and I understand why people are asking those
questions, but the essential thing that
journalist ha—have to remember is not to lose
faith, not to lose confidence,
to keep doing this kind of reporting
and that's what I see when I look around the world.
I mean I don't, I don't think those of us who care
about independent media, those of us who care about
free expression, those of us who care about press
freedom, I don't think we're winning
the battle right now.
I think, I think we're losing.
HEFFNER: What will it take for us to win?
SIMON: Well I mean I think,
I think if you look, I, I think that the
fundamental, the first step is this,
this recommitment, but then we have to sort of
fight this battle at every level.
So we have to fight for the technology that we
need to distribute independent information,
because there are powerful forces globally that are
pushing against this technology that are using
it for surveillance, that are using it to track
critical expression, that are using it to control
and manipulate and censor information,
to disseminate propaganda, so we have to fight
to control that technology.
We have to fight against, um,
what I call the democratators,
which are elected autocrats who hide their
repression behind democratic norms,
so they win elections, they uh,
cite the rule of law, they express rhetorical support
for independent media, I put um,
uh, Erdogan and Putin and the late Hugo Chavez
clearly in this camp.
You could call Orban of Hungary uh,
also a me—there are many, there are many examples,
so we need to fight against those tendencies.
Um, and, and, and I think finally we need to fight
against the most pressing threats to journalists'
safety, which is the targeting of individual
journalists and impunity in those crimes.
We need to create a culture of safety around the world.
Journalists are being killed in record numbers.
They're being killed by actors like terrorists
and criminal groups that are impervious to
tra—traditional advocacy.
So another step we need to take is to really create
a culture of safety where journalists,
freelancers, local journalists,
everyone who's part of this community,
uh, have the tools that they need to do their job safely.
We're actually committed to doing that at CPJ,
we've created a new emergencies response team
and hired a safety specialist to oversee
this kind of work, so those are concrete,
um, attainable steps that we can take,
uh, to keep information flowing,
and, and that's, and that's the priority right now.
HEFFNER: And, and in the last thirty seconds,
flowing and factual too, because free press,
it's one thing to have a creative novel, but our...
SIMON: Yeah.
HEFFNER: Our, our politics seems much more fictional than...
SIMON: I, I think, I think we almost need
to take it into, we have to create the environment
for factual accountability journalism to thrive,
and that means an environment,
a global environment for free expression.
We have to accept that in that environment,
there will be information that's not factual,
that's distorting, but we need to first create
that environment and then once that environment
is created and sustained, then we need to fight
within that environment to produce the kind of
journalism that matters to us.
HEFFNER: Joel, we could do a whole,
another half hour on distinguishing between
free expression and free press,
because I think that will get at the heart
of this post-factual question too
but we don't have the time to do that now.
Nonetheless, thank you for delving
into these matters with me today.
SIMON: It's been a pleasure,
thank you so much for having me on.
HEFFNER: And thanks to you in the audience.
I hope you join us next time for a thoughtful
excursion into the world of ideas.
Until then, keep an open mind.
Please visit the Open Mind website at
Thirteen.org/openmind to view this program online
or to access over 1,500 other interviews,
and do check us out on Twitter and Facebook
@OpenMindTV for updates on future programming.
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