HEFFNER: I'm Alexander Heffner, your host on The Open Mind.
Make Congress great again.
That's the prompt we're here to explore today.
Joining me are two distinguished veteran
congressional staffers.
Jean Bordewich is program officer for democracy
grantmaking at the William and Flora Hewlett
Foundation's Madison Initiative.
The program is focused on combating the forces
of hyper-partisanship and political polarization in Congress.
Before joining the foundation,
she was staff director of the US Senate Committee
on Rules and Administration.
Our other guest, Betsy Wright Hawkings,
is program director of the Democracy Fund's
Governance Initiative, which seeks to foster
dialogue across the ideological spectrum
and support reform to reduce gridlock.
Prior to her appointment, she was chief of staff
to four members of the US House of Representatives.
Welcome to you both.
BORDEWICH: Thank you.
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: Thank you, Alexander.
BORDEWICH: Thanks for having us.
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: Great to be here.
HEFFNER: I wanted to contextualize Congress
for our viewers today by alluding to two statements,
one from a Republican, one from a Democrat.
There was a Democratic member of the US House
representing California who said recently that
it was not so illegitimate to think that California
and western states ought to secede from the union, right?
On the opposite end, you had a former Republican
governor, Jeb Bush, and presidential candidate
as we know, consider the possibility of a
Constitutional Convention...
BORDEWICH: Mm-hmm.
HEFFNER: Writing in the Wall Street Journal
that there may be a need to reform structurally
how we actually do business as a governing entity.
This is in the more significant context
of the last several election cycles,
more American citizens voting for one party
than the other party, the Democrats than the
Republicans, and yet the outcome being more
Republican representation in the US House of
Representatives and the US Senate.
This seems to be the 800 pound gorilla in the room
insofar as it is challenging the basic
norms of Democratic or Republican governance
and the idea of representing interests proportional
to the number of votes.
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: First of all, I think what you're getting at is
the conversation about the Electoral College, right?
And uh, what the Electoral College ensures is that,
um, that all the states have a voice, right?
And essentially that everything in-between
the east coast and the west coast can't just be
flyover country, but that the candidates have to
engage with those states and those people as well.
And I think, I think that um,
what, what we hope to achieve at Democracy Fund,
and I think, you know, Jean can add to this
because we work very closely together,
is to really facilitate dialogue so that the
solution isn't to secede, so that the solution
is not to um, just talk even less to people who
disagree with you but to really facilitate
and support efforts to create, uh,
to create consensus and, and really begin at the
fundamental level of how do you do that,
because it's been long enough since Congress
has effectively been able to do that in a
consistent and meaningful basis that in some ways the,
the members and certainly, um,
the young staff that are there just don't
have experience doing it.
BORDEWICH: Yeah I, I share, I share Betsy's belief that the,
uh, the system as it's currently structured can work.
I don't think we need a Constitutional
invent—Convention to reinvent the structure
of the government in order to get to a place
where we can have a functional Congress.
Uh, but a lot of these things that you're
talking about are built into our institutions
and our structure from the earliest days.
They're also in some recent congresses,
there were more votes nationwide for the
House of Representatives, say for Democrats,
than there was proportional
representation, so I think there's a sense that
the gerrymandering issue that you brought up,
um, is of interest to a lot of people.
But I do think that, I believe in the union,
so I'm not in favor, I live in California,
I'm not in favor of secession.
Uh, we fought a Civil War over that
and I still think the union is the right idea.
But I do think that uh, the way we use the rules
and the structures as they currently exist,
uh, could be done in different and a better way
and uh, when you change the rules,
it does change the dynamics,
but I don't think that changing the rules
is the answer to the problems that we're trying to address.
HEFFNER: Right, and I wasn't alluding to the
presidential vote.
I was alluding to state legislatures that are
devising districts in such a way not to give
the voice to the people but actually to give the voice
to congressional officials but I,
I want your reaction to this basic notion,
which you hear early and often,
and that is uh, Congress is piss-poor,
uh, below ten percent approval rating...
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: Mm-hmm.
HEFFNER: But not my guy or gal.
Not my congressional official.
You've been in the field.
How much of that sentiment is accurately reflected?
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: About a year ago there was a poll.
Um, I'm forgetting right now who conducted it.
That where, uh, the percentage of constituents
who said, who said that, that,
that they pre—prefer their member and their,
their member still is good in their eyes
dipped below fifty percent for the first time,
and I think what that reflects is a frustration
with the ability of the system to work that is
beginning to supersede...
BORDEWICH: Mm-hmm.
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: Um, the, the,
the goodwill that is, um, that is uh,
given to the members and I think part of the reason
for that, um, as we were studying,
um, these, the system, when I first came on board
the Democracy Fund and really beginning to
analyze how we were going to take,
um, take this, this problem apart and identify
the key challenges and then develop a strategy
to address them, um, is that, is,
is that um, members are less and less,
um, engaged one on one with constituents.
Um, they have also, there's,
as I mentioned before, there are now four classes
of members of Congress who have essentially run
against Washington promising to fix it,
and that has, there's an un—unintended consequence
there, which is that it further drives down the
opinion of the institution by the general,
on the part of the general public.
So um, all of these, all of these challenges
I think are, are areas that in our strategy to help
Con—to help increase congressional capacity
and engagement and really rebuild some constructive
political approaches that we're trying to address.
BORDEWICH: I would just say one other thing
on the structure.
There's, you mentioned an idea which is an
assumption, which is that Congress is representative
of the demographics of the country in two ways that,
so which actually it's not.
So the Senate is not, uh, a representative body,
and half, I mean a legislation has to go
through the Senate in order to make it,
so the Senate was set up to be representing the states,
not to be representing the people in those states.
Now our idea of what is an appropriate representative
body has evolved, but the structure is not representative.
So we're really talking about the House of Representatives.
And there we're talking about uh, the problem which
is exacerbated, um, by residential sorting,
so birds of a feather flock together.
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: Right.
BORDEWICH: And I talked with a congressman from
rural, uh, Missouri recently and he said
there is no way you could draw my district,
even among the three states that surround me,
and make this a Democratic district.
There just aren't any Democrats out here.
So we have the residential sorting problem,
uh, and we have the winner-take-all problem.
So one of the things that, reforms that both
Democracy Fund and Madison Initiative are supporting
as an experiment, uh, is rank choice voting
and multi-member districts.
Multi-member districts were allowed up until
the 60s, and as an outgrowth of some
of the civil rights laws, they were eliminated.
But Maine just voted in a referendum
this November to allow rank choice voting
for all of the state and federal offices in the state.
Uh, some other locations like San Francisco
and Oakland, where I live, uh, have that for city offices.
So I think there are important experiments
taking place that would allow more diversity of
representation to take place within the existing
structures without a Constitutional Convention.
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: And, and counteract,
I think some of the, some of the factors that
further accelerate the effects of the
res—residential sorting that Jean mentioned such
as the effect of social media,
the effect of um, the growing influence of
partisan media elites, um, the,
the almost constant focus on who has power rather
than on policy making, um, the role of money in
feeding all of those, um, and how they all lead to
exacerbation of the hyper-partisanship,
hyper-partisan environment that we're operating in.
HEFFNER: So in terms of fueling that beast,
you describe here, Betsy, a so-called death spiral...
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: Yeah.
HEFFNER: That begins with a hyperpartisan
environment driven by close competition for majority control...
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: Right.
HEFFNER: And ideologically polarized political parties.
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: Mm-hmm.
HEFFNER: "An inability to process the public's
demands into satisfactory public policy because
of weakened institutional functionality...
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: Mm-hmm.
HEFFNER: A weakening of internal professional
capacity for policymaking, which has left Congress
more susceptible to outside interest influence.
Divisiveness that leads citizens to disengage
from the system, making hyper-partisanship worse..."
and then finally, last but not least,
the hyper-saturation, you didn't say hyper but I'll add it...
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: Yeah. [LAUGHS]
HEFFNER: Hyper-saturation of money in the system,
which reduces the voices of the elected and citizens alike.
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: Right.
HEFFNER: So I felt like we had to contextualize
the outcome of this 2016 election...
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: Yes.
BORDEWICH: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
HEFFNER: In terms of presidential and house races.
Now that we've done that, we have the system we have.
BORDEWICH: Mm-hmm.
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: Right.
HEFFNER: And we are intent on working within it,
whether it is infrastructure,
which is an agenda of the Trump administration
presumably, as he campaigned on it.
There are other issues, uh,
where there might be some fashioning of
coalitions and compromise.
But as you see this new Congress taking shape,
what, where is the most promise for this
consensus-driven approach to counteract this vicious cycle?
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: So I think it starts with
rebuilding the capacity of the institution.
That means rebuilding the capacity
of the members and frankly rebuilding the...
HEFFNER: Faith.
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: Capacity of the staff.
Um, the, the close competition and the
hyper-partisanship have led members to respond,
as I referred to earlier, uh,
by running against the institution.
What that means is that they essentially have
undercut their own ability through um, through over 20%
budget cuts over the last, over the last uh, five years.
BORDEWICH: Mm-hmm.
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: Um, and, and there are many fixed
costs that a member of Congress has.
You still have to pay rent for your district office.
You still have to pay for your computers.
Um, and so what ends up being sacrificed is staff salaries.
Uh, nobody goes to Washington to be wealthy.
Um, despite what I know much of the com—common
wisdom is.
And this, this, the average salary of a
staffer who has say, three or four years of
experience, enough to know how to,
to know how to, how to, to know the district,
to know how to legislate, offer an amendment
on the floor, to have relationships with
colleagues in other offices,
to know the constituency well enough to find the
experts and help build the coalitions that members
need, has been cut in third, in, by a third.
And what that means is that a lot of good people,
a lot of good staffers can't afford to stay.
Now certainly I understand the concern about people
coming and staying for 25 years,
but you need some, um, institutional wisdom.
And when the average tenure of a staffer is
less than two years, less than one term,
there's essentially no institutional memory,
no institutional capacity.
And so Jean and I, the Hewlett Foundation and
Democracy Fund, I think are starting with efforts
to rebuild the capacity both in terms of training
and just raw knowledge of how to do the job but also
helping provide opportunities for just
knowing colleagues on the other side of the aisle
and learning best practices in a
non-partisan environment.
BORDEWICH: Yes.
Some, some more specific examples of that,
at the member level we both support programs
that bring members together across party lines either
for policy discussions, for international trips,
which I don't consider junkets because I think
it's one of the most valuable ways that we
strengthen the institution is giving them time
together, uh, on trips abroad,
and um, also at the uh, staff level by doing the
same thing, supporting bipartisan associations
of chiefs of staff, legislator directors
and so forth, they actually don't know each other.
I've sat between two members who were chairman
and sub-committee chairman at a dinner
once and I assumed they knew
each other. They both knew me, they did not know each other,
and they'd both been in the House for a very long time.
So I found that very surprising.
There's a lot to be done in building stronger
bipartisan relationships.
I don't think it's enough.
It's a starting point, but it's not sufficient.
So we're both looking at other ways of
strengthening capacity, and you
mentioned some of them.
Giving more financial resources.
Uh, we don't want lobbyists to know more than the staff.
That's what happens right now.
Another area that we've explored is um,
building more skills in just how do you negotiate
well in the legislative and political context.
And we conducted an experiment with this
and we found that staff tried to adapt the principles
that were taught from business and so forth
but they actually don't quite fit,
because it's a different environment.
There's also oversight, which is a fundamental
responsibility of Congress,
and has atrophied very much in recent years.
And that means making sure that executive branch
agencies are spending the money that Congress
appropriates, appropriates as,
as Congress intended and also that the programs are working.
But it's easier, particularly when the
mem—the president is from your own party,
to just let that slide, or when you just
don't have the energy to do it, and so we end up with just the
highly politicized types of, of hearings.
But we think that can change,
and uh, there's a lot of interest and,
and we are trying to provide through the
grantees that we work with,
the organizations we work with,
more training in what are the tools of oversight.
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: Yeah.
BORDEWICH: So these are very technical but
institution-building projects that we have underway.
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: And, and I have to say,
I have been surprised, um, in the two years since
I left the hill and came to Democracy Fund,
um, there is a consistent theme from staffers
and members alike.
Uh, you know, there's traditionally the sort
of typical, well good luck with that,
BORDEWICH: [LAUGHS] WRIGHT HAWKINGS: But really,
after that, they say thank you.
Because they know they need help.
BORDEWICH: Yes.
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: You know, they may run against
the institution, but they get to Washington
and it's a hard job and it, it, they, they...
They, they work seven days a week,
they're away from their family a great deal.
Even when they're back home,
they're, they're not at home,
they're out meeting with constituents and working hard.
And um, they don't go through all that to not
accomplish anything, you know?
And yet there are these systemic challenges that
have evolved over time as Jean,
as Jean mentioned and um, and they know they need
help and, and there's an opportunity there for us.
HEFFNER: Uh, you've mentioned a number of
facets or areas of potential reconciliation
when it comes to language, understanding the language
of someone of the opposite party in a way
that doesn't offend you so much that you
can't get to the negotiating table...
BORDEWICH: Mm-hmm. WRIGHT HAWKINGS: Right.
HEFFNER: To begin with. But a common theme,
Betsy, that you, you're mentioning is running
against the institution.
I think about often, well why do you run for,
for higher office or Congress if you don't
bring to it that workmanlike,
um, approach of fixing it, not killing it?
Uh, do you think that in this last Congress there
was some backlash against Senator Cruz and others
who undertook, uh, a, an, an obstruction against
this Obama administration that, that backfired?
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: So I, I think there was some,
that might not have been visible.
I also think that, um, members essentially will
do what they're rewarded for.
Congress is a representative body by definition.
And members will behave in,
in the way for which they're rewarded,
and so until they are rewarded more at the
ballot box for cooperation and collaboration
than for voting no, um, you know, I think
that's what will happen, so there's, there's an element of
changing, uh, the system of incentives and rewards,
and in some ways almost providing members,
you know, cover and positive reinforcement,
uh, when they are able to break through.
There's a group of members who have been elected
in the last, diff—it's a group,
some, some of whom have each been elected over
the last three Congresses who meet for breakfast every week.
It's bipartisan, no staff are allowed.
I know who a few of the members are.
But I'm not supposed to.
And it doesn't get any press,
and the reason it doesn't get any press
is that there are members who are concerned that if...
HEFFNER: Image.
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: Their constituents or again,
going back to social media,
um, the partisan media elite,
it would, they would become a target for that.
And so they do work together on local issues
that don't gain headlines, um,
and they are able to move, um,
maybe not legislatively but through other means,
um, projects that affect their,
their constituents' efforts that,
that benefit their constituents in a local
way or a regional way, um, that don't require
legislation, but you don't see them. You know.
BORDEWICH: Yeah. I think that's very important.
Uh, do you want to ask me a question
or should I com—comment on that?
HEFFNER: Sure. No, both, but let me just add to this
conversation this idea of incentivizing,
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: Yes.
HEFFNER: Consensus, cohesion, and so that the,
the fat cats...
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: Mm-hmm.
HEFFNER: When they come through Congress,
when they enter a congressional office
are not the center of power.
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: Mm-hmm.
HEFFNER: And how are you and your colleagues
driving that point that anyone who walks
into a congressional office,
ought to have what we define as political capital?
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: Right.
Well having worked for four members of Congress,
two in the Senate and two in the House,
and I've worked in the district,
so I've been a district director,
I think that the, the view from the state part
of the office is a lot different than the view in Washington.
And if, I have to say the offices,
every office I've worked in,
the most important person to ever walk in the door
was a constituent.
And also, mem—every member I worked for had office
hours in the district so you didn't have to come
to Washington to see him.
You could see him often more easily in the district.
I think members crave contact with their
constituents for the most part.
Of course not everybody's the same,
but, and they um, I mean that was one reason
a member I worked for, we had eight district offices
in the Senate so that there would be
representation in every part of the state.
So I think that it's true that uh,
lobbyists and people who give a lot of money
also have access.
Often lobbyists have frankly knowledge
and expertise that may be missing on the staff,
as we talked about.
And uh, they're used for that reason.
Uh, I do think though this leads to a conversation
about what's happened to provide pressures
on members that are more intense than in the past,
from the nationalization of money in politics,
the nationalization of the news media,
the loss of state-based coverage of your members
in district... BORDEWICH: Right.
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: ... and um, the nationalization
of party messages.
So, and the coherence of the party,
so the parties have gotten very ideologically
coherent within themselves,
they have these messages that everybody's
supposed to adhere to.
It might not fit your district very well.
And you're sort of torn sometimes and uh,
between that and what the leadership wants you to
either vote or talk about.
Uh, at the same, so that this loss of the
connection at the district level I think is very serious,
and it's been exacerbated by all these elements.
I think that it's a, if I think of Congress
as a crucible, you know, big metal
cauldron that's got a lot of, sitting on a lot
of heat on the bottom but it's also got a, a lot of
heat on the inside as the stew is, is simmering and bubbling,
it's got to be strong enough to contain
and withstand all those forces,
um, and produce something hopefully we'll all want to eat.
But I think the pressures from the outside
of the institution have intensified greatly
in the last twenty years and have made it harder for members
to fall back on the local model that was so
successful for a long time for many of them,
and can work in a, in a cross-partisan way
and still does, but then they get caught up in this
nationalization of media message and money.
HEFFNER: Well, I will share with you a,
a really impressive case study,
which was two neighboring constituencies in New York.
Representative Tonko and Representative Gibson...
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: Mm-hmm.
BORDEWICH: Mm. Mm-hmm.
HEFFNER: And I was honored to moderate a discussion at Skidmore College...
BORDEWICH: Oh cool.
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: I was gonna say, Saratoga, yeah.
HEFFNER: Saratoga.
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: That's my, that's my home district.
HEFFNER: I think relying on or having, having a shoulder,
um, of your neighboring congressional friend in
this case trumped commitments to third
parties, be they lobbyists or partisan organizations,
and that was a really inspiring message
that they sent to the students at Skidmore.
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: But, and I think though it's very,
it's a very important illustration of the fact
that, you know, there's a, there's a lot going
on with a member of Congress and,
and the, the national media,
which now completely dominates the messages
'cause you don't get, you don't have local media
much anymore and when you have it,
they're, they don't have enough staff to cover
their congressional delegation,
um, puts out this message about all the conflict
on the most ideologically divisive issues.
There's a whole range of things that first of all
pass every year, because you work on it,
but more importantly as you just pointed out,
regional issues unite across party lines.
I mean we're all trying to clean up the Hudson River,
for example, from Paul Tonko all the way down
to Chris Gibson and, and further south in,
in the Hudson Valley.
That's gonna unite you.
Um, you have other issues that you might share
statewide or regionwide like we had adjacent
districts in two different states.
We could have both been talking about land
preservation for example...
BORDEWICH: Or the regional airport, or, yeah.
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: Or clean water or the regional airport. And...
BORDEWICH: Watershed. Yeah.
Long Island Sound watershed, all these things.
[LAUGHS] And that's going on all the time with members.
I had one member from a deep south state,
um, he's white and he was telling me that um,
he had a very close relationship with one of
the African-American, uh, representatives
from their, from the area and, and he said we work
together constantly on state issues but um,
we don't make it very public,
like you were saying earlier,
that we are so close because the
African-American is worried about getting
primaried and I'm worried about getting primaried
if it's known that, because our national profile
is super-liberal versus super-conservative.
On those high-profile, highly divisive issues.
So there's a lot more going on,
but unfortunately, um, those highly divisive
issues and those pressures,
those national—nat—nationalized
pressures I think have uh, really weakened the institution.
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: The most important thing
is to engage in the process. Okay.
Um, you can't change a system that you're not
part of, and that you're not engaging with,
um, and you can't change an institution unless
you're petitioning it and bringing your concerns.
And I think um, you know, I actually was uh,
speaking to a group just yesterday and um,
this is a group where they have members advo—it's a
group of advocacy organizations and some are
very concerned about juvenile diabetes.
Others are concerned about muscular dystrophy.
Others are concerned about um,
about orphan diseases, heart disease, cancer, and so on.
Each has a different ask of Congress with regard
to funding, with regard to policy.
I said what if the first thing you said,
when you, each one of you, when you walked in to see
your member of Congress was the most important
thing is that you fix this place,
because I said you're not going to get that
increased funding for heart disease research
if the, if the institution is not capable of legislating?
And so that's the place to start.
Um, there's one, uh, effort that we've gotten
uh, that, that we're supporting at
Democracy Fund, through Democracy Fund Voice,
our c 4, um, which is a joint committee to provide
a forum where members can take their reform ideas,
um, and, and, and air them and then work together
to try to build coalitions, um,
to advocate some reforms that will help
the institution to work better.
Um, so that's one idea and,
but I do think the most important thing
is this is a representative body, and people who want to see
change need to roll up their sleeves and get
involved and ask for it, because members will respond.
HEFFNER: Betsy, Jean, thank you so much
for joining me today.
BORDEWICH: Thank you, Alexander.
WRIGHT HAWKINGS: Thank you, this is great.
HEFFNER: And thanks to you in the audience.
I hope you join us again next time
for a thoughtful excursion into the world of ideas.
Until then, keep an open mind.
Please visit The Open Mind website at
Thirteen.org/openmind to view this program online
or to access over fifteen hundred other interviews.
And do check us out on Twitter and Facebook
@OpenMindTV for updates on future programming.
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