♪ [THEME MUSIC] ♪
>> HI, I'M BOB HERBERT.
WELCOME TO OP-ED.TV.
MARTIN LUTHER KING JR. AND
ROBERT F KENNEDY WERE SOME OF
THE MOST STORIED FIGURES IN THE
HISTORY OF AMERICA.
SURPRISINGLY, LITTLE IS KNOWN
ABOUT HOW THESE TWO RELATED TO
AND INTERACT WITH ONE ANOTHER.
THAT IS UNTIL NOW.
A NEW BOOK, THE PROMISE AND THE
DREAM: THE UNTOLD STORY OF
MARTIN LUTHER KING JR. AND
ROBERT F KENNEDY FILLS IN THE
HISTORICAL BLANKS AND DOES IT
IN A MOST COMPELLING WAY.
I AM FORTUNATE TO HAVE THE
AUTHOR, DAVID MARGOLICK.
HOW ARE YOU?
>> I AM WELL.
>> GOOD TO SEE.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
>> IT IS STRANGE READING A
BOOK LIKE THIS BECAUSE YOU THINK
YOU KNOW SO MUCH ABOUT TWO GREAT
FIGURES AND YET THERE IS SO MUCH
THAT YOU DON'T KNOW.
AN ESSENTIAL ASPECT OF THE BOOK
IS THAT THE FACT THAT THESE TWO
MEN, AT THE SAME TIME, AND CLOSE
TO ONE ANOTHER IN AGE REALLY
INTERACTED VERY LITTLE. YET
THEIR PASSIONS OVERLAPPED.
TALK LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT.
>> THEY WERE RELATED TO ONE
ANOTHER BECAUSE ONE WAS THE MOST
IMPORTANT WHITE MAN IN THE -- ON
THE QUESTION OF CIVIL RIGHTS AS
ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR THREE
YEARS.
HE HAD MORE TO DO WITH
DETERMINING THE COURSE OF THE
CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT THAN
ANYBODY IN THE KENNEDY
ADMINISTRATION APART FROM HIS
BROTHER AND MAYBE EVEN MORE THAN
HE, AND MARTIN LUTHER KING WAS
THE MOST IMPORTANT CIVIL RIGHTS
LEADER.
AND SO, IT IS VERY CLEAR THAT
THESE TWO GUYS HAD A
RELATIONSHIP.
IT WAS LARGELY A SUBTERRANEAN
RELATIONSHIP AND THAT WAS NO
ACCIDENT.
THE KENNEDYS KEPT THEIR
DISTANCE FROM MARTIN LUTHER KING
BUT THEY HAD TO DEAL WITH HIM.
IN MANY WAYS, MARTIN LUTHER KING
WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR JOHN
KENNEDY'S ELECTION.
THESE TWO GUYS WERE VERY
INTERDEPENDENT BUT THEY HAD A
COMPLICATED AND HIDDEN
RELATIONSHIP. IT WAS AN
EVOLVING RELATIONSHIP OVER
THE EIGHT YEARS.
THERE WERE SEVERAL DIRECT
ENCOUNTERS THAT WERE
RARELY WITHIN CAMERA RANGE.
THERE WERE NO GOOD PICTURES OF
THE TWO OF THEM TOGETHER.
AGAIN, I WRITE IN THE BOOK THAT
THIS IS NO ACCIDENT.
THE KENNEDYS WERE POLITICIANS
MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE AND THEY
REALIZED THAT WHILE MARTIN
LUTHER KING WOULD PLAY A LARGE
PART IN DETERMINING THE SUCCESS
OF THE KENNEDY ADMINISTRATION,
THEY COULD NOT EMBRACE HIM
TOO DIRECTLY.
THE KENNEDYS, WHO ARE RUNNING
FOR REELECTION FROM THE MOMENT
THEY WERE ELECTED.
THE SOUTH WAS STILL IN PLAY AND
THEY DID NOT WANT TO BE SEEN
WITH MARTIN LUTHER KING-
>> YOU HAD ALL THOSE DEMOCRATIC
MEMBERS OF CONGRESS AND
OTHER DEMOCRATIC FIGURES
IN THE SOUTH WERE PLAYING THE
ROLE THAT REPUBLICAN OFFICIALS
IN THE SOUTH NOW PLAY.
THEY WERE SEGREGATIONISTS,
HOSTILE TO THE CIVIL RIGHTS BUT
CRUCIAL TO ANY DEMOCRAT RUNNING
FOR PRESIDENT.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
YOU HAVE TO REMIND YOURSELF OF
THAT.
GEORGIA WAS IN PLAY, WHICH IS
AMAZING.
NOW, IT IS BACK IN PLAY IN A
WAY.
THE CIRCLE HAS COME FULL CIRCLE,
OR ALMOST FULL CIRCLE.
>> YOU MENTIONED THAT KING WAS
RESPONSIBLE TO SOME EXTENT FOR
JACK GETTING ELECTED BECAUSE THE
ELECTION IN 1960 WAS RAZOR THIN
MARGIN.
TALK ABOUT THE ROLE THAT KING
PLAYED.
>> KING WAS THROWN INTO
PRISON ON A TRUMPED UP PAROLE
VIOLATION ON THE EVE OF THE
ELECTION.
THE KENNEDYS DEBATED WHETHER TO
DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS AND JOHN
KENNEDY ENDED UP CALLING UP
CORETTA KING AND COMMISERATING
WITH HER AND OFFERING TO TRY TO
HELP, IS THERE ANYTHING I
CAN DO, LET ME KNOW.
CORETTA KING WAS PREGNANT AT
THE TIME AND MARTIN LUTHER KING
HAD BEEN SENT TO THIS PRISON
IN RURAL GEORGIA AND THERE
WERE REAL FEARS FOR HIS SAFETY.
JOHN KENNEDY CALLED HER UP OVER
THE OPPOSITION OF ROBERT
KENNEDY.
ROBERT KENNEDY THOUGHT THIS IN
PERILED HIS BROTHER'S CANDIDACY
AND WOULD BACKFIRE.
IT TURNED OUT THAT WORD GOT OUT
ABOUT KENNEDY'S INTERVENTION.
ROBERT KENNEDY FLIPPED HIMSELF.
HE WAS A COMPLICATED GUY.
HE ENDED UP CALLING UP THE JUDGE
WHO WAS OVERSEEING THE CASE AND
GOT KING SPRUNG FROM JAIL.
THIS WAS WITHIN DAYS OF THE 1960
VOTE.
WORD SPREAD THROUGH THE BLACK
CHURCHES THROUGHOUT
CONGREGATIONS, PRIMARILY IN THE
NORTH OF THE KENNEDYS HAD DONE.
AND THE BLACK VOTE CAME OUT
OVERWHELMINGLY FOR KENNEDY ON
ELECTION DAY.
>> AFTER JACK WAS ELECTED
PRESIDENT AND BOBBY WAS ATTORNEY
GENERAL, THERE WAS ONE CRUCIAL
POINT OF INTERACTION BETWEEN
BOBBY KENNEDY AND KING.
THAT WAS WHEN KING AND SOME OF
THE FREEDOM RIDERS AND SOME OF
THE FOLLOWERS OF KING
WERE TRAPPED IN A CHURCH.
TALK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED, IT WAS
A HARROWING SITUATION.
>> LET ME BACK UP ONE SECOND
TO SAY THAT WHEN ROBERT KENNEDY
WAS NAMED ATTORNEY GENERAL, IT
WAS A CONTROVERSIAL MOVE BY JOHN
KENNEDY.
IT WAS CONSIDERED NEPOTISTIC.
MARTIN LUTHER KING WAS HORRIFIED
NOT OVER THE ISSUE OF NEPOTISM
BUT BECAUSE ROBERT KENNEDY WAS A
HARDASS.
HE WAS CONSIDERED A RIGHT WINGER
AND HAD BEEN ASSOCIATED WITH JOE
MCCARTHY.
KING THOUGHT THIS WAS A POOR
STEWARD FOR THE CIVIL RIGHTS
MOVEMENT.
AND THAT HE CRIED OUT TO HIS
AIDES, INCLUDING HARRY BELAFONTE
FIND ME THIS MAN'S MORAL
CENTER BECAUSE WE HAVE TO DEAL
WITH HIM.
I KEEP HEARING THESE AWFUL
THINGS ABOUT HIM, I KNOW HIS
RECORD IS BAD.
WE HAVE TO WORK WITH HIM.
THIS WAS THE BACKDROP TO THE
EPISODE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.
WHERE KING WAS IN THIS CHURCH IN
MONTGOMERY AND THE CHURCH WAS
BESIEGED BY PROTESTERS AND HE
WAS TALKING TO ROBERT KENNEDY ON
THE PHONE AND IN THAT
CONVERSATION, YOU CAN SEE THE
COMPLEXITIES OF THEIR
RELATIONSHIP.
YOU CAN SEE THE AWKWARDNESS, YOU
CAN SEE THE INTERDEPENDENCE.
YOU CAN SEE KING SORT OF FENCING
WITH ROBERT KENNEDY.
YOU CAN SEE ROBERT KENNEDY
PATRONIZING KING.
KING WAS IN FEAR OF HIS LIFE.
THERE WERE ALWAYS PROTESTERS
OUTSIDE.
ROBERT KENNEDY IS MAKING LIGHT
OF IT WITH LAME ATTEMPTS AT
HUMOR.
IT IS ONE OF THE RARE, RECORDED
INTERACTIONS BETWEEN THE TWO OF
THEM.
WHERE YOU CAN SEE THE FULL,
COMPLEXITY OF THEIR
RELATIONSHIP.
ALTERNATELY FRIENDLY,
ALTERNATELY WARY, VERY CAREFUL,
AWKWARD, ALL OF THE DIFFERENT
CROSSCURRENTS BETWEEN THE
CONVERSATION.
>> HOW DID THAT CRISIS RESOLVE
ITSELF?
OBVIOUSLY, KING GOT OUT SAFELY.
>> KENNEDY SENT IN
NATIONAL GUARDSMEN AND SECURITY
PEOPLE TO RING THE CHURCH.
HE DID NOT SEND IN TROOPS.
IT WAS SORT OF THIS AWKWARDLY
ASSEMBLED GROUP OF SECURITY
PEOPLE FROM DIFFERENT AGENCIES.
THEY ULTIMATELY MADE THE
SITUATION, THEY NEUTRALIZED THE
SITUATION AND KING GOT SMUGGLED
OUT OF THE CHURCH IN THE MIDDLE
OF THE NIGHT.
>> YOU WROTE THAT BY ANY
HISTORICAL MEASURE, KING WAS THE
MORE SIGNIFICANT OF THE TWO MEN.
I AGREE WITH THAT.
I'M NOT SURE WHETHER THE PUBLIC
IN GENERAL WOULD AGREE WITH
THAT.
TELL ME WHY?
>> KING SINGLE-HANDEDLY
ADVANCED THE AGENDA OF CIVIL
RIGHTS IN THIS COUNTRY, CHANGED
THE WHOLE BLACK-WHITE CULTURE.
KING WAS A REVOLUTIONARY FIGURE.
KING HAD, IN A WAY, MET HIS
POTENTIAL.
KING ARGUABLY HAD PEAKED BY THE
TIME HE WAS KILLED.
HE HAD PEAKED BEFORE HE WAS
KILLED.
HE WAS TAKING IT FROM ALL
DIRECTIONS IN THE CIVIL RIGHTS
MOVEMENT.
HE HAD OPPOSITION AMONG MORE
CONSERVATIVE CIVIL RIGHTS
LEADERS WHO FELT THAT HE HAD
STEPPED OUT OF HIS LANE BY
GOING UP AGAINST THE VIETNAM
WAR AND ANTAGONIZING LYNDON
JOHNSON.
AT THE SAME TIME, MORE RADICAL
FIGURES LIKE STOKELY CARMICHAEL
WERE YAPPING AT HIM FROM THE
OTHER SIDE.
KING WAS IN A VERY TROUBLED,
AGONIZING POSITION LATE IN HIS
LIFE.
HE WAS DEPRESSED, HE FELT THAT
HIS INFLUENCE WAS WANING AND IT
WAS NOT CLEAR WHERE HE WAS GOING
TO GO IN THE CIVIL RIGHTS
MOVEMENT.
WHEREAS ROBERT KENNEDY HAD ALL
THE POTENTIAL.
ROBERT KENNEDY WAS UNREALIZED
POTENTIAL.
ROBERT KENNEDY MIGHT HAVE GROWN
TO BE AS IMPORTANT AS A
HISTORICAL FIGURE AS MARTIN
LUTHER KING ALREADY WAS BUT WE
WILL NEVER KNOW.
>> YOU MENTIONED VIETNAM AND
THIS WAS SUCH A TOUGH ISSUE FOR
THE COUNTRY AS A WHOLE, AT THE
TIME.
KING HAD TAKEN ON VIETNAM BUT
IT WAS ALSO A PROBLEM FOR BOBBY
KENNEDY SO CAN YOU TALK A
LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE ROLE THAT
VIETNAM PLAYED IN THE LAST YEARS
OF BOTH OF THESE MENS LIVES.
>> WELL MARTIN LUTHER KING
FELT THAT THE CIVIL RIGHTS
MOVEMENT COULD NOT BE
SEPARATED FROM THE VIETNAM WAR.
>> AND THAT'S WHAT CAUSED
PROBLEMS WITH THE OLD GUARD.
>> PEOPLE FELT HE HAD NO
BUSINESS ANTAGONIZING LYNDON
JOHNSON WHO WAS THEIR FRIEND.
>> JOHNSON HAD PASSED THE
CIVIL RIGHTS ACT OF 1964.
AND THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT OF
1965.
>> JOHNSON FELT BETRAYED BY
MARTIN LUTHER KING.
PEOPLE THOUGHT KING HAD NO
BUSINESS DOING SOMETHING LIKE
THAT.
MORE CONSERVATIVE FIGURES IN THE
CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT AND EVEN
IN THE LIBERAL COMMUNITY, I
REMEMBER FEELING THAT AS A
16-YEAR-OLD KID.
>> [LAUGHTER]
>> THAT KING WAS ACTING
INAPPROPRIATELY AND IT
WAS NOT HIS BRIEF TO DO THAT.
>> HE GAVE A FAMOUS SPEECH AND
THE NEW YORK TIMES WROTE A
BLISTERING EDITORIAL.
>> THIS WAS THE FAMOUS
SPEECH THAT HE GAVE AT THE
RIVERSIDE CHURCH.
IT WAS VERY CONTROVERSIAL.
KING WAS, BECAME RADIOACTIVE
TO ROBERT KENNEDY, AMONG OTHER
PEOPLE.
ROBERT KENNEDY HAD AN AMBIGUOUS
RELATIONSHIP.
HE WAS MUCH MORE CAREFUL ABOUT
HIS OPPOSITION TO THE VIETNAM
WAR THAN KING HAD BEEN.
BECAUSE ROBERT KENNEDY WAS ONE
OF THE ARCHITECTS OF THE VIETNAM
WAR.
HE HAD BEEN PRESENT AT THE
ACCELERATION, HE HAD BEEN BEHIND
HIS BROTHER ON THAT.
THE KENNEDYS WERE BELIEVERS IN
THE VIETNAM ENTERPRISE IN THE
BEGINNING AND ROBERT KENNEDY WAS
A SUPPORTER OF THE GREEN BERETS
AND COUNTERINSURGENCY.
ROBERT KENNEDY TIPTOED INTO
OPPOSITION TO THE VIETNAM WAR.
HE WAS VERY DELIBERATE ABOUT IT.
WHICH IS WHAT OPENED UP THE
POSSIBILITY FOR EUGENE MCCARTHY
TO BECOME THE ANTIWAR CANDIDATE,
RATHER THAN ROBERT KENNEDY.
THIS WAS AN ISSUE THAT DIVIDED
KING AND KENNEDY.
KENNEDY WAS MUCH MORE CAREFUL
ABOUT IT.
IT MAINTAINED THE DISTANCE
BETWEEN THE TWO.
IT LIMITED THE DEGREE TO WHICH
KENNEDY COULD EMBRACE MARTIN
LUTHER KING LATER ON WHEN HE WAS
RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT.
KING'S SPEECH AT RIVERSIDE
CHURCH WAS NOT ONLY AGAINST
THE VIETNAM WAR IT WAS AGAINST
AMERICA'S ROLE IN THE WORLD AND
EVEN THE CAPITALIST SYSTEM.
KING HAD BECOME MUCH MORE
RADICAL.
KENNEDY COULD NEVER HAVE
EMBRACED HIM.
IT WOULD HAVE BEEN POLITICAL
SUICIDE.
SO, AGAIN, THEIR RELATIONSHIP
WAS BELOW THE SURFACE.
IT WAS RARELY EXPLICIT.
>> SO, THINGS MOVED SO FAST.
HE GIVES THE SPEECH IN 67, BY
68, THINGS ARE MOVING SO FAST.
IT IS HARD FOR ME TO CONVEY WHAT
IT WAS LIKE TO PEOPLE NOW
BECAUSE, YOU HAD THE VIETNAM WAR
GOING TERRIBLY IN JANUARY OF
THAT YEAR.
EVERYBODY BEGAN TO UNDERSTAND
THAT THERE IS NO CELEBRATORY
WIN THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN
HERE.
JOHN G. MCCARTHY CHALLENGES
JOHNSON AND DOES WELL IN THE NEW
HAMPSHIRE PRIMARY.
HE CAME IN A STRONG SECOND.
JOHNSON GETS OUT, BOBBY KENNEDY
GETS INTO THE RACE AS AN ANTIWAR
CANDIDATE, STEPPING ON
G. MCCARTHY'S VICTORY.
JOHNSON DECIDED HE IS NOT GOING
TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT.
YOU HAD A VERY INTERESTING, ONE
OF MANY INTERESTING THINGS IN
THE BOOK, WHEN MARTIN LUTHER
KING WAS KILLED IN APRIL OF
1968, YOU QUOTED JACK NEWFIELD,
A NEW YORK REPORTER SAYING
KING'S ASSASSINATION GAVE
KENNEDY A SENSE OF PURPOSE THAT
HAVE BEEN LOST WHEN JOHNSON
WITHDREW FROM THE RACE.
GIVE US A LITTLE PICTURE OF WHAT
WAS GOING ON IN THIS PORTION OF
1968.
JOHNSON GETS OUT, KENNEDY IS NOW
AN ANTIWAR CANDIDATE AGAINST
JOHNSON, TRYING TO GET THE
DEMOCRATIC NOMINATION BUT
THEN KING GETS KILLED AND
GIVES KENNEDY RENEWED PURPOSE.
>> I THINK THAT ROBERT
KENNEDY GOT INTO THE RACE TO
OPPOSE LYNDON JOHNSON.
ALL OF A SUDDEN, THE REASON FOR
HIS CANDIDACY WAS RIPPED OUT
FROM UNDER HIM.
JOHNSON DISAPPEARED.
IT LOOKED AS IF THE ANTIWAR
POSITION WAS MORE LIKELY TO
PREVAIL.
THEY HAD GOTTEN JOHNSON, THE
ARCHITECT ACCELERATION, THEY HAD
GOTTEN HIM OUT OF THE RACE.
KENNEDY SORT OF WAS FLOUNDERING,
BRIEFLY.
THIS HAD BEEN THE PURPOSE OF HIS
GETTING INTO THE RACE TO BEGIN
WITH.
HE WAS NOT QUITE SURE WHERE TO
GO.
I THINK THAT WHAT JACK WAS
REFERRING TO WAS THAT KENNEDY
HAD TO FIND HIS OWN VOICE.
HE DID NOT HAVE A BOGEYMAN TO
RUN AGAINST.
KENNEDY'S EVOLUTION IS REALLY
INTERESTING.
IF YOU GO BACK TO KENNEDY'S
BEGINNINGS, KENNEDY ADMITTED
THAT HE HAD NO EMPATHY FOR BLACK
PEOPLE.
>> [LAUGHTER]
>> HE WAS ALMOST PROUD OF IT.
THERE WAS AN INTERVIEW THAT HE
GAVE TO ANTHONY LEWIS, AFTER
JOHN KENNEDY'S ASSASSINATION,
WHERE LEWIS SAYS TO HIM, WHEN
DID YOU FIRST BECOME CONSCIOUS
OF CIVIL RIGHTS AS A PROBLEM?
AND KENNEDY SAID I WAS NEVER
CONSCIOUS OF IT.
MY FAMILY, WE DID NOT TALK ABOUT
RACIAL DISTINCTIONS, BLACK,
WHITE, THERE WERE PEOPLE WITH
PROBLEMS EVERYWHERE.
KENNEDY RESISTED WITH THE IDEA
OF BEING A LIBERAL, AND
GENERALLY A LIBERAL ON RACIAL
MATTERS.
>> BOTH JACK AND BOB, IF YOU
READ THE HISTORY, THERE WAS NO
ISSUE RELATED TO BLACK PEOPLE.
JOHN KENNEDY WAS INTERESTED
PRIMARILY IN FOREIGN POLICY.
>> THIS IS WHY MARTIN LUTHER
KING SENIOR WAS SUPPORTING NIXON
UNTIL THE KENNEDYS GOT HIS SON
OUT OF JAIL.
THERE WAS STILL THE JACKIE
ROBINSON WING OF THE REPUBLICAN
PARTY.
THERE WAS A FEELING THE KENNEDYS
HAD NO EMPATHY FOR BLACK PEOPLE.
ROBERT KENNEDY, EVEN EMBRACED
THIS.
ONE OF THE PROBLEMS ABOUT
WRITING ABOUT ROBERT KENNEDY WAS
HE THROUGH OUT DISINFORMATION
ABOUT HIMSELF.
HE WANTED TO COME OFF AS THIS
TOUGH GUY.
SO, HE SORT OF MADE HIMSELF A
HARDER ASS THAN HE REALLY WAS.
>> HE DID NOT WANT TO SHOW ANY
OF THE SOFT SPOTS.
>> THIS CHANGED THROUGH THE
COURSE OF HIS BROTHER'S
ADMINISTRATION.
THERE IS THE FAMOUS MEETING THAT
HE HAD WITH JAMES BALDWIN AND
OTHER BLACK INTELLECTUALS IN
JUNE OF 1963.
KENNEDY WAS VERY CURIOUS.
HE WAS MORE CURIOUS THAN HIS
BROTHER.
HE REACHED OUT TO THE BLACK
COMMUNITY HE WANTED TO LEARN
ABOUT IT MORE THAN HIS BROTHER.
HE WAS MORE FLEXIBLE THAN HIS
BROTHER.
HE WAS MORE EDUCABLE THAN HIS
BROTHER.
HE WAS MORE PASSIONATE.
HE WAS MORE VISCERAL.
HE WAS MORE THAN ANY OTHER
KENNEDY ADVISER, WHO WAS BEHIND
JOHN KENNEDY INTRODUCING CIVIL
RIGHTS LEGISLATION IN JUNE OF
1963, KENNEDY HAD EVOLVED EVEN
BEFORE JOHN KENNEDY WAS
ASSASSINATED.
THAT OBVIOUSLY CHANGED HIM
PROFOUNDLY.
SO THAT AFTER LYNDON JOHNSON,
ROBERT KENNEDY FOUND A FRIEND IN
THE BLACK COMMUNITY.
ROBERT KENNEDY WAS A MAN WHO
NEEDED TO BE LOVED AND BETWEEN
1964 AND 1967, HE REALIZED THAT
GREAT AFFECTION MAY BE THE
UNDESERVED AFFECTION HAD WASHED
OVER TO HIM AND EMBRACED HIM.
HE EMBRACED IT IN RETURN.
SO THAT AFTER LYNDON JOHNSON
WITHDREW, IT WAS NOT THAT MUCH
OF A LEAP FOR ROBERT KENNEDY TO
BASE HIS CAMPAIGN ON THE RIGHTS
AND CONCERNS OF MINORITIES.
OF FARMWORKERS, LATINOS AND OF
THE BLACK COMMUNITY.
SO, BY THE TIME MARTIN LUTHER
KING WAS SHOT IN MARCH OF 1968,
ROBERT KENNEDY HAD ADOPTED
KING'S ROLE.
HE BECAME, ALMOST INSTANTLY,
EVEN AMONG MARTIN LUTHER KING'S
ADVISORS, HE WAS SEEN AS THE
SUCCESSOR TO MARTIN LUTHER KING
IN AN EXTRAORDINARY WAY.
>> YOU COVER A STORY THAT HAS
BEEN TOLD MANY TIMES BUT I
THOUGHT THAT YOU COVERED IT AND
ACTUALLY GAVE NEW INFORMATION
TO THE STORY.
THIS IS THE ADDRESS THAT BOBBY
KENNEDY MADE FROM THE BACK OF
A FLATBED TRUCK IN INDIANAPOLIS.
AFTER HE FOUND OUT THAT MARTIN
LUTHER KING HAD BEEN
ASSASSINATED.
WE HAVE ABOUT THREE MINUTES
LEFT.
I WOULD LIKE YOU TO TALK ABOUT
THAT ADDRESS AND THEN WE WILL
TALK ABOUT THE ASSASSINATION OF
BOBBY KENNEDY.
>> THAT WAS ROBERT KENNEDY'S
MOST FAMOUS SPEECH.
IT IS IRONIC THAT ROBERT KENNEDY
LIKE THE KENNEDYS HAD GREAT
SPEECHWRITERS.
HE HAD JEFF GREENFIELD.
AND ADAM WALINSKY.
ALL THESE PEOPLE
DRAFTING ELOQUENT SPEECHES.
THE SPEECH IN SOUTH AFRICA AND
OTHER SPEECHES THAT HE GAVE.
HIS MOST FAMOUS ONE IS ONE THAT
HE CRAFTED ALMOST
INSTANTANEOUSLY IN THE BACKSEAT
OF A CAR, DRIVING INTO THE BLACK
NEIGHBORHOOD OF INDIANAPOLIS
THE NIGHT THAT KING WAS SHOT.
IT WAS A CAMPAIGN APPEARANCE
THAT MANY PEOPLE HAD URGED HIM
NOT TO MAKE.
THEY THOUGHT THAT THE
NEIGHBORHOOD WAS UNSAFE,
IT WAS DANGEROUS FOR
HIM TO GO THERE.
THE MAYOR URGED THAT THE EVENT
BE CANCELED.
MORE PEOPLE TOLD ROBERT KENNEDY
NOT TO DO IT.
EVEN ETHEL KENNEDY WENT
BACK TO THE HOTEL.
I DESCRIBE IN THE BOOK HOW SHE'S
CLUTCHING HER ROSARY BEADS
IN THE BACKSEAT.
>> SHE WAS USUALLY STALWARTLY.
>> SHE HAD VIBRATIONS ABOUT
THAT NIGHT AND WENT BACK TO THE
HOTEL.
THE MORE YOU TOLD ROBERT KENNEDY
NOT TO DO SOMETHING, THE MORE
LIKELY HE WAS TO DO IT.
AND HE GOT UP AND HE TOLD THE
CROWD THAT KING HAD BEEN SHOT.
THERE WERE MANY PEOPLE IN THE
CROWD, PARTICULARLY THE PEOPLE
WHO SHOWED UP EARLY, NO
TRANSISTOR RADIOS AROUND WHO
STILL DID NOT KNOW THAT KING HAD
BEEN SHOT.
ROBERT KENNEDY GAVE A
CONCILIATORY, SHORT SPEECH THAT
NIGHT, URGING RACIAL HARMONY.
PLEADING FOR PEACE AND PLEADING
FOR NONVIOLENCE.
URGING THAT THE CROWD AND
LISTENERS FOLLOW KING'S PLEAS
FOR NONVIOLENCE.
TRYING TO CALM THE SITUATION
DOWN.
AND FAMOUSLY, INDIANAPOLIS WAS
ONE OF THE FEW AMERICAN
CITIES THAT DID NOT GO UP IN
FLAMES THAT NIGHT.
IT WAS THE SPEECH, I KNEW THAT
COMING FROM THE MAN THAT
KING HAD ORIGINALLY OPPOSED AS
ATTORNEY GENERAL, COMING FROM
THE MAN WHO APPROVED WIRETAPS OF
MARTIN LUTHER KING'S PHONE, FOR
KENNEDY TO GIVE THAT SPEECH THAT
NIGHT SHOWED HOW EXTRAORDINARILY
HE HAD EVOLVED.
IT WAS MORE FAMOUS THAN ANY
SPEECH GIVEN AT KING'S FUNERAL.
AS I SAY ROBERT KENNEDY'S MOST
FAMOUS SPEECH, YET, THE NEXT
MORNING, THE CAMPING WAS
SUSPENDED AFTER THAT.
ROBERT KENNEDY IN A SPEECH THE
NEXT MORNING IN CLEVELAND AND
ALL THE CAMPAIGNS WERE
SUSPENDED.
A SPEECH ABOUT VIOLENCE IN
AMERICA.
IT WAS AN EXTRAORDINARY SPEECH.
IT DID NOT MENTION MARTIN LUTHER
KING BY NAME WHICH I THOUGHT WAS
AMAZING.
HOW DO YOU SPEAK ABOUT VIOLENCE
WITHOUT MENTIONING HIM?
THAT REFLECTED THAT KING,
KENNEDY HAD TO KEEP HIS DISTANCE
EVEN AFTER HE GOT SHOT.
HE DIDN'T MENTION KING IN A
SPEECH THAT REALLY HAD KING'S
FATE ALL OVER IT.
IT JUST SHOWED THAT IT
ENCAPSULATED THE RELATIONSHIP
BETWEEN THESE TWO MEN
REMAINED AWKWARD.
>> IN APRIL, BOBBY KENNEDY WAS
KILLED IN JUNE OF 1968.
WE WILL HAVE TO STOP THERE.
WE COULD TALK FOR ANOTHER HOUR.
DAVID, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
>> THANK YOU, BOB.
>> WE WILL BE BACK IN A MOMENT
WITH A FINAL WORD.
>> WE RECENTLY RECEIVED THE SAD
NEWS THAT THE HARVARD
SOCIOLOGIST DEVAH PAGER HAD DIED
FROM PANCREATIC CANCER AT THE
YOUNG AGE OF 46.
DR. PAGER WAS NOT FAMOUS IN
THE CELEBRITY SENSE OF THE WORD.
SHE WAS VERY WELL-KNOWN IN HER
FIELD FOR LANDMARK RESEARCH
THAT SHOWED THAT RACIAL
DISCRIMINATION IN THE
LABOR MARKET AND THE
CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM WAS
WORSE THAN SCHOLARS AND CIVIL
RIGHTS ACTIVISTS HAD REALIZED.
IN HER DISSERTATION, SHE
EXPLAINED AFTER PAINSTAKING
RESEARCH THAT AMERICAN EMPLOYERS
MORE LIKELY TO HIRE A WHITE MAN
WITH A FELONY CONVICTION THAN A
BLACK MAN, EQUALLY QUALIFIED,
WHO HAD NO CRIMINAL RECORD AT
ALL.
HER HARVARD COLLEAGUE, WILLIAM
JULIUS WILSON, ONE OF THE
NATIONS FOREMOST EXPERTS ON
RACIAL DISCRIMINATION SAID I AM
A SCHOLAR OF RACE RELATIONS BUT
PRIOR TO HER RESEARCH, I WOULD
NOT HAVE PREDICTED THIS FINDING.
HER STUDY SHOWED THAT BLACKS
WITH A CRIMINAL RECORD HAD
TROUBLE SECURING EMPLOYMENT.
WHEN GEORGE W. BUSH AND MANY
OTHERS PUSHED EFFORTS TO HELP
FORMER PRISONERS REENTER THE JOB
MARKET, THEY RELIED HEAVILY ON
DR. PAGER'S RESEARCH AND
RECOMMENDATIONS.
THE NEW YORK TIMES SAID HER WORK
WAS SO WELL-REGARDED THAT SHE
HAD BEEN ON TRACK TO BE ELECTED
TO PRESTIGIOUS NATIONAL ACADEMY
OF SCIENCES - A RARE ACHIEVEMENT
IN ANY CASE BUT EVEN RARER
FOR SOMEONE IN SOCIOLOGY,
FOR A WOMAN AND FOR ONE
SO YOUNG.
UPON HER DEATH, HER NAME WAS
REMOVED FROM THE BALLOT BECAUSE
MEMBERSSHIP CANNOT BE GIVEN
POSTHUMOUSLY.
THAT IS ALL FOR NOW.
SEE YOU NEXT TIME.
♪ [THEME MUSIC] ♪
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