(people conversing loudly)
- [Man] Welcome to the FedCast.
- Hello, I'm Danfriedz.
- And I'm Jaymii Plays.
And welcome to a very special episode of the FedCast.
This is the first episode in a series of episodes
that we are dedicating to accessibility and diversity
in games, the gaming industry and community.
We hope to bring you these episodes every
third full length episode.
- But Jaymii, what about our diversity
and inclusiveness episode back at episode three?
- Well, that episode focused on why diversity
and inclusiveness is important,
but these episodes are gonna go deeper,
and look at more specific people in our community
and how we can better develop games
and interact with each other in the community
to make everyone feel included.
- Let's get into it then.
- Hey Dan!
- Hey Jaymii, it's good to see you.
- It's good to actually see you.
It's gonna be amazing.
So yes, this episode is all about deaf people,
and in Australia, the sign language is called Auslan.
It's not ASL, as American Sign Language,
in Australia, we use Auslan.
So I thought maybe, I know you usually introduce the podcast
and it's your thing.
- Yeah.
- But I thought today, I would introduce the podcast
with a little bit of Auslan.
Is that all right? - Go ahead then, yeah.
- All right.
So hello everyone, and welcome to the FedCast.
Which I'm gonna spell FedCast.
Please, if you are good at Auslan, please forgive me.
I am very much learning, but I'm gonna give it a shot.
So,
F-E-D-C-A-S-T.
FedCast.
And my name is
J-A-Y-M-I-I,
Jaymii,
P-L-A-Y-S,
Jaymii Plays.
- Right.
So you have to,
I would love to do the same,
so you're gonna have to teach me.
I think I saw I am.
- Yep.
I said that my name is--
- My name is--
- Yep, all right.
- D. - Yep.
- A?
- Yep.
- I don't know N.
- Okay, so N, so I did M,
but then N is just two fingers on your palm.
- Two, okay. - Yep.
- N. - N.
- F, which we saw in, the Fed, is this,
with the dominant hand on top.
- F. - Yep.
- E.
Oh sorry, I first, I don't know how you spell your name.
I.
- I.
- E.
- E.
- Then back to D.
- D. - Yep.
And then Zed.
- Zed. - Yeah.
Very good! - All right.
Thank you very much.
- So Dan, did you know that over 20% of the community
of gamers have a disability?
- I didn't know that, but I do now.
- The major thing about with disabilities is that
it isn't about, it's about overcoming a barrier.
So it's not going, the reason you are this,
is the problem is, the fact that
your medical condition is a barrier between
your medical condition and the aspects of the game.
And it's very simple to overcome those,
there's a lot of great references, resources out there
for new devs that want to learn how they can
make their games more accessible,
and we'll put those all in the description and whatnot.
But let's just talk about some of the general stuff about
things that, people who are deaf need to overcome.
Can you think of anything?
- Well, I'd imagine people who are deaf would encounter
barriers when playing games that are going to make it
hard for them to play the game in general,
like I'd imagine if you were deaf,
you would have trouble locating
where bullets are coming from in a shooter.
- Yeah, so there's a lot of things like,
people automatically obviously talk about subtitles
and dialogue and that is a huge thing
and it's a big part and you'll see in interviews
with people we've got coming up,
they all mention subtitles and how important it is,
not just to include them, but do them right.
But you're very right, there's other things,
like having audio cues that aren't necessarily
put into captions.
Things like a zombie moaning off in the distance behind you
and if that's the first time you know of the zombies,
as the player, and that's what you react to,
if you're deaf, you might not be able to hear that zombie,
and if it's not included in the captions
or in some other way in your screen,
they don't know it's there.
So, there you go.
Now, it's all very good for us to keep discussing this,
but we're not really experts so
(laughing)
we've done a series of interviews with a bunch of people
and the first one is with Peter, who is one of,
is a deaf member of the gaming community,
but specifically, our gaming community.
He's a member of the Federators,
and Peter was very gracious to spare some of his time
to answer some of our questions.
So, here's Peter.
Hello Peter, thank you very much for joining me today.
I just want to ask you a few questions on
what it's like from your perspective as a deaf gamer
in the gaming community.
So to start off, are there any features or mechanics
that you've come across in games that have made games
more or less accessible to you?
- Yeah, I can see that there are a lot of deaf people
that love to play games, and for me as a deaf person,
without captions, I'm unable to understand
features of the game.
So, they should include captions.
- Are there any games that you currently play
that you wish had captions?
- Yeah, there's some games like WOW, World of War.
- Yeah.
- And so, there's oftentimes where there isn't subtitles.
And a lot of games with VR that use the VR system,
I've often been excited to get involved with them but
they are always, the instructions and the type of movement
that's required is always audio files,
and so I'm unable to play those.
- That's a shame.
So independent developers who are starting,
one of the simplest things they can do
would be to add captions?
- Yeah, definitely.
And hopefully in the future,
that's something that they consider
and that they can work out.
And that would,
that would then make it be perfect.
At the moment, virtual reality stuff is quite new
and I understand that they're still working on
things like that.
- Wonderful.
Thank you.
What has your experience been like as a deaf gamer
in the online community?
- When I first joined the online community, through PC,
everyone would forget that I'd actually need
an audio device, and I would actually just follow games
and teach myself based on what was on the screen.
So things like, yeah, having lives left
and all the information, I was only getting
what was on the screen.
So that was something that's, yeah,
that I started with.
- And if you don't mind me asking, how can
us who aren't deaf better interact with deaf gamers
while in the online community?
- It's not easy, I guess.
I have used an interpreter in the past.
And sometimes I'm playing versus friends,
and I can't see what's happening online through,
well, I can't hear what's happening online,
so I've used an interpreter.
But it is quite hard.
- Does text chat help?
- Yeah, at times it can, yeah.
I can use text chat if it's a video call,
but if I can't, and people are speaking, I can't, no.
- I understand.
And so what are your thoughts on the current representation
of deaf people in video games,
and would you like to see more deaf playable characters?
- Yeah, it'd be great to see that.
In the future, for game competitions to have
maybe an e-sports game could include a deaf person
or some sort of organization that could include that,
yeah, I would be very supportive of someone
who could include those things.
- That'd be awesome, and would you like to see
within games themselves characters that you can play
that are deaf?
- Oh, I don't mind.
Yeah, I think that it'd be great to have,
I did see actually in America, there was a game,
it was Moss, it was a little mouse game?
- Yeah, Moss, are you referring to Moss?
- Moss, yeah, it's the Moss game.
Yeah, that's the one.
And so that was quite interesting to see
the sign language involved with the game,
and so, I think it'd be great to sort of see
to have that feature in the game.
- And that's pretty exciting as well
because that is also a VR game.
So hopefully they will also include some instructions
in there that aren't audio,
so that deaf players can also experience that as well.
- Yeah, exactly.
And so I think there's big interest in
and a great need to have that involved in the game.
It would create a lot of excitement for deaf people.
I guess if deaf kids are willing to get involved with games,
it would encourage them, if they did see that sort of,
that feature in a game,
or that involvement if they saw it in the game,
it could definitely generate more interest for young people.
- And has games helped you as a person?
Do you find games a really big part of your life?
- It's helped me understand in terms of reading things,
and literally, I do enjoy games in general.
How I grew up,
I grew up involved with games through my brother
and my brother was the one who introduced me to
an arcade system with a game,
and so at the time, that was only Pac-Man,
the arcade game, Pac-Man.
And so he told me there's lots of pictures there,
but that Pac-Man game didn't have sound,
so that's what got me involved.
- Oh, that's awesome.
My brother also got me, helped get me into gaming.
- Oh, nice.
- So what are your favorite games?
- My favorites would be
video games would be, here's an example.
- Bioshock Infinite, very good.
- Bioshock.
Great graphics, beautiful graphics and playing,
very smooth playing and
much better than the old days
as far as gameplay so, good.
Other examples that I could show that I generally enjoy.
- Fallout, yeah. - Fallout.
And also
I love to play long...
- Oh yeah, Assassin's Creed.
- Yeah, long to play games.
- So generally, are you a big fan of the story-based games
but with a bit of action?
- Yeah, definitely.
And any sort of long game that makes it
a little bit busy and yeah, keeps me focused.
I don't know, shorter games I find it,
you don't get value for money.
And it's quite, I mean, quite a bit of expensive
just to play short versions of games.
- No, I definitely agree.
It's always good when you can sink your teeth
into a big campaign.
- Yeah, definitely.
- Well thank you very much Peter for everything,
for sharing your time with me today
and answering some questions.
Is there anything else you wanted to
talk to everyone about?
Or anything else you wanted to talk about?
- I'd like to let people know in the community
that don't have deafness that they always should think about
if they ever meet deaf people in the community,
at competitions or getting involved,
maybe they might use a pen and paper or instant chats
or using their phone to try and communicate,
'cause often, there's a communication issue
through no fault of anyone's but it's just a strategy.
A lot of people just get nervous about
how to communicate with deaf people and
just anybody really.
Those different cultural things, it could be any disability
but just want to give people an idea
that they should be confident to try
and interact and communicate.
- Well, thank you very much and I agree, I think that,
generally we as gamers, we find that we often are
very socially, have social anxiety.
And so that it can be hard enough talking to each other
and that games kind of help create that bond
to let us communicate.
But sometimes we have to remember that for some of us,
we have to go that step further and just to be brave,
and I'm very thankful that you've taken
your time to reach out to me today,
'cause I know I'm very scared of video calls as it is,
so I appreciate it when people in the community
do take their time to talk to me about this.
- Yeah, that's no problem, thank you.
- Thank you very much.
- Thanks for having me.
- Thank you, see ya.
And so you can check out Peter's YouTube channel.
We'll put a link in the description below.
Or above, to the side, wherever it is in podcast land.
- Wherever it is.
One of the things I thought was really interesting
with Peter's interview is he mentioned VR quite a lot.
Something I didn't consider.
What do you think about it?
- Yeah, VR's one of those really new things
that we don't necessarily think about altogether sometimes
because it is so new,
when it's developing all these new things to it.
And yeah, I thought it was really interesting as well,
so I thought I would contact the developers of Moss,
Polyarc Games, and find out more about Quill and VR
and if they were, what they were gonna do
to make it accessible.
So I sent them some emails,
and these are the questions we asked them.
- So what I'll do is I'll read your question.
You can read the response.
Is Quill a deaf mouse, or just knows how to sign?
- [Jaymii] So, Quill is not deaf.
She uses pantomime gestures to help communicate,
and some of those gestures are authentic
American Sign Language.
- [Dan] All right.
So will Moss have subtitles or closed captions?
And if so, how will they be formatted?
Will there be captions options, such as letterboxing?
- [Jaymii] So they said they will have options for captions.
As for how they will be formatted,
they're still working on that.
- [Dan] Will Moss feature any non-verbal cues
to assist deaf players better understand information/
instructions in the game?
- [Jaymii] So they're still testing out the game to see,
to try to make it more accessible for everyone,
but it's definitely something they are taking up.
- It's so good to see that there are developers
taking this seriously, taking accessibility seriously.
- Yeah, I agree.
It'd be very interesting to see how the end product goes
and fingers crossed they do it really well.
So, it'd be one to watch.
- Yeah.
Speaking of which, you had a chat to a odd gamer girl.
Why don't you have a chat about that?
- So yeah, one deaf gamer is giving feedback and support
to the community by reviewing games
based on their accessibility.
So it's reviews that aren't how good the game was,
or the design features,
it's more about how accessible the game is.
And so that's kind of giving back.
Her name is OneOddGamerGirl, or Susan,
and she was a bit camera shy,
so I'm gonna need you to help me out again, Dan,
as we had our interview via text.
So can you read out the questions
and I'll read out Susan's answers?
- I absolutely can.
- Great.
- So, how do you approach reviewing a game?
- [Jaymii] My process for reviewing is pretty simple,
since it's not content or game quality based.
I'll start a game and play enough of it
so I get a good feel for the accessibility features,
usually an hour or so, and while playing,
I make a note of all the things
that are particularly hard for me.
Then my hearing partner Courtney plays through
the exact same section with my notes
and makes sure to see if the areas I had trouble with
were due to inaccessibility,
like bad or nonexistent captioning or lack of visual cues.
Then I play through the same section one more time
with her serving as my interpreter
for anything that's inaccessible,
to see if it becomes a better or easier experience
with her filling the role of missing accessibility features.
- [Dan] Brilliant.
What are the key features in a game
that make it accessible to deaf players?
- [Jaymii] The most important features for me
are legible subtitles and captioning.
Ideally, size can be scaled, the color can be changed,
and they're on a black or darkened background.
Visual cues for uncaptioned sounds are also quite helpful.
- [Dan] How accessible are games in general at the moment?
Is there a genre of games
that's generally more accessible than others?
- [Jaymii] It really depends on the developer
and the type of game.
Indie devs seem to put more effort into accessibility
and do it better, and RPGs, in my experience,
tend to have the best accessibility because often
there are times, there's a lot of dialogue,
either spoken or presented as text
that's necessary to the story,
so they're more likely to put more effort
into doing captioning well.
- [Dan] What are the most common simple things devs do
to make a game less accessible?
- [Jaymii] They seem to put out games without testing
for accessibility whatsoever.
A simple play through by them with the sound off
would reveal so much to them, or even better,
they could hire deaf players as QA testers,
because who knows what's better what we need than us?
- [Dan] What has your experience been like as a deaf gamer
in the online community?
- [Jaymii] In terms of social media, it's been great.
I've connected with a very strong and vocal community
that works for better accessibility of all kinds
and that's always nice to see.
And our allies are amazing and helpful as well.
In games, it hasn't been great.
So far, I've been pretty much unable to enjoy MMOs
as anything but a solo player because so often,
voice chat is the go-to communication method for groups.
- [Dan] So, what are some of your favorite games?
- [Jaymii] God, I have too many favorites to count.
My top ones that I return to numerous times though
are Bioware games.
I love the stories and the characters.
I also really love the autonomy of games
like Skyrim and Fallout, getting to explore a huge world
how often I want is a lot of fun.
- Thanks very much, Susan, for that.
If you haven't checked her out, go to her blog
which is oneoddgamergirl.net.
It's actually really, really cool.
I checked it out about three months ago
when we were first talking about doing these episodes.
It's really, really worth looking at.
- She does have a Patreon link through that OneOddGamerGirl
so please go and support her
if you appreciate her doing these accessibility reviews
and you want to help her out and keep her going.
- Obviously, all this will be in the description below
or to the sides or above.
- Or yeah, I'll put it on the screen
if you're watching the video version, which I hope you are.
Please, please consider watching the video version.
- We got dressed up and everything.
(laughing)
- I mean, you are looking pretty good.
It's like, black is classic.
- It's maroon.
Can't see that?
I even did my hair.
I even got dressed.
- I really appreciate that you got dressed.
- I think the viewers didn't want to see that.
- So now what's important is that
one of the things she, Susan, mentioned was
indie game versus triple A games,
which I thought was really interesting.
- Yeah, I mean I've heard over the past,
having this, where'd I hear this?
I heard this on the road that
a particular developer was making a game,
and one of their players contacted them and said,
"I'm colorblind, I can't actually play this game."
And then within a day made a colorblind patch for it,
just for that one player.
- That's amazing! - So, that's so cool.
And that was an indie developer.
So it's cool to see that they are so committed
to doing that.
- Yeah, so now it's just a matter of,
it's a shame because triple A developers
have so much money, you would think they would be able
to put a little bit of extra money towards accessibility
and testing that.
- Indie games definitely have the personal touch.
- Yes, so, keep doing it, indie devs.
Keep going strong, and show those triple A gamers
the way to go.
So we also got, we've talked about things from
a community member, and we've talked about things from
someone who reviews games,
but one of the things we don't also
necessarily think of is deaf streamers.
So we contacted DeafGamersTV, Phoenix,
who is a deaf streamer,
and got to have a lovely chat with him.
So let's go to that.
- Enjoy.
- So hello everyone, and welcome.
I'm apparently interviewing Phoenix.
And we are also being wonderfully interpreted by Laurie.
Would you like to introduce yourself, Phoenix?
- Sure.
My name is actually Chris.
I go by Phoenix.
Chris Robinson.
And I am from DeafGamersTV channel,
and this is located on Twitch.
So really, I'm happy to be here
and to be interviewed by you, Jaymii, it's great.
- Thank you, thank you, thank you.
(Jaymii laughing)
Laurie, did you want to introduce yourself as well?
- I'm Laurie, I'm an interpreter here
and I'm interpreting for you guys.
This is great.
- Thank you, thank you very much both
for giving us your time.
Let's just get straight into some questions.
- All right.
- All right, so Phoenix, what has your experience been like
as a deaf gamer in the online community in general?
- Well, it's been quite complicated.
It's a bit of a double edged sword in the way.
Because sometimes, you run into people who,
you don't really have a problem with them,
other times you do run into people who might be
a bit of a jerk.
For example, if you want to play a game,
particular with a team, they sometimes require,
they might ask you to put a mic on,
and as a deaf person, I'm not using a mic.
So that can be a bit of a big problem.
And I often find myself hoping and praying
that I'll be able to work with somebody
who wants to team with me who doesn't mind
me not using a mic.
So it can be hard sometimes,
it can be a difficult thing.
- Yeah, I understand, the community's got a way to go.
So specifically with your streaming...
- Yeah, you're right, you're right.
- So specifically with your streaming,
what are some of the things that non-deaf viewers
should keep in mind when watching a deaf stream?
- Well, most of the time when they come in to a deaf stream,
they might be confused about not hearing any sound.
They may be thinking that something must be wrong
but generally, deaf gamers don't use the sound.
But there are some deaf gamers who do use sound,
and I think it just depends on
what a person is chooses to do.
So first of all, don't be confused or alarmed
that you're not hearing anything.
And sometimes you might need to ask, you might say,
"Is there supposed to be sound in this game?"
So you can certainly ask, and someone will let you know.
You may see a deaf person wearing headphones,
and you might think, "Well wait a minute, if they're deaf,
"why are they using headphones?
"How are they supposed to hear with headphones?"
So that can be a bit confusing.
But I have to say that the deaf community is quite varied.
There are some people who are completely deaf
who don't have any residual hearing.
And there's some deaf people
who have a little bit of hearing.
They might hear partially in one ear
and they use their hearing aids
and can pick up some sounds.
So the community is quite varied.
It's important to just be mindful
about what you say to the person regarding their hearing.
For example, if you see a deaf person,
a deaf gamer who's got earphones on or headphones on,
think twice about what you ask because you may be,
it's like asking a blind person,
"So why do you wear contact lenses?"
So it's a bit of a level of sensitivity
that you need to have with asking about
a person's status and how much they can hear or not.
Now, I guess the number one rule is just
to sort of be respectful regardless of
what the person, whoever the person is who's gaming,
if they're deaf or if they have another disability,
so I think it's just some good advice
is just to be kind, be nice.
- Yeah, I definitely think that one of the things
the community does is be mindful that every streamer
is an individual and a person as well and that
the people behind the screen are real and they're not,
while they are entertaining you,
they're not there purely for your entertainment essentially.
- Right, I always feel appreciative of people
who might want to use the chat box
because that's how I'm able to actually
communicate with other people who are in the audience,
who are participating and watching the stream, so,
and I enjoy that, I mean,
that's really the one way that deaf gamers
do communicate with the audience.
- I love the Twitch chat as well.
I think one of the things that's particularly great
when I was watching your stream was that
the use of began to use on the Twitch Bots
to help communicate, so you as a deaf gamer
don't have to constantly remind people
that you're deaf or how to best interact with each other
in the chat, so I found that really helpful and...
- Yeah, you're right, that's really true.
- So when I was also watching your live stream,
I noticed you using the hashtag Project #NoVoiceZone.
Can you tell us more a bit about that?
- Yeah, sure, sure.
I found that, actually this is a while back
when I was in college in 2006,
there was a group, there's like a club of people
who would get together and would play but
what we would do is, the rule was that we could
not use our voices at all.
And what it did was it forced us to learn how to communicate
in a way that was visual, either by writing, by signing,
by using a phone to text on,
so we had to try to find other ways to communicate
other than the spoken voice.
I mean, and it's actually a very helpful skill to have
because we often find ourselves in settings
where there's really not,
if there's a lot of background noise and sound,
and so to be able to communicate visually
without using a voice is actually a really good thing.
And it's surprising, there are lots of different ways
that you can actually communicate without using your voice.
And I think people who come to my stream are often asking,
"So how do you communicate without a voice?"
And I say, "Well, hey, we've got chat bots here
"and we can type back and forth,
"and so I can see what you want to say
"and you can see what I want to say."
And I like the idea of this #NoVoiceZone.
So that's where that comes from.
- So is that something that people who aren't deaf
can get involved in as well?
- Right, exactly.
Anybody.
You can even have animals if you wanted, right?
Animals don't have a voice.
But hearing people, deaf people, it's amazing.
People can use their hands for a variety types of gestures,
even infants, babies can learn how to use
very basic gestures at an extremely young age
to gesture what they might want,
to have a drink or to eat something,
so visual communication's pretty amazing
and accessible to all.
- It really is.
I work in theater, and so backstage when we have to be
very quiet, then you need to explain to an actor
across the room what you need them to do.
I think it's a skill that I need to practice as well.
- Right, right, that's great.
That's actually a perfect example.
- So staying on Twitch, recently this year
Twitch Unity Day happened, and we talked about this
on our podcast before but we couldn't get involved, so,
but you did get involved and so we want to hear
more about Twitch Unity.
Tell us about what happened this year.
- Right, right.
I was receiving messages on Twitch
where people were saying, "Well",
they wanted to have that,
they had a secret they wanted to share with me,
they wanted to have this special day.
And they would like me to, I was asked to create a video
about my experience,
and they wanted me to put some lines from my work
if available and I thought, "Well, my personal
"meaning for these certain lines",
I was asked to sort of express that.
And I think by,
one second for the interpreter.
The interpreter just needs to repair that interpretation.
Hold on.
My aim was to basically bring together the community
through this event, and so it was a special day
that I established so that we could do that.
So as a deaf person,
I didn't want people to feel like
they had to be careful in terms of
how they could interact with me,
and then learned something about how to actually interact
with any deaf person.
So I think it was a good opportunity to show
what my experience was and how people who weren't deaf
could actually approach a deaf person and how we could
feel quite good about getting to know each other better
and understand that there are different ways
that deaf people communicate.
For example, deaf people communicate through writing
and through signing, and it doesn't have to be a struggle,
so it was really amazing, it was a really great event.
- And can you just briefly--
- If I could say, I was just really happy to be part of that
and to make that happen.
- That's wonderful.
Can you explain to me how what you were streaming differs
from what you normally stream?
- Say that again?
- Can you explain what you were streaming
compared to what you would normally stream?
- On that day you mean? - Yeah.
- Ah yes, yes.
We had a short theatrical sort of explanation
to the audience about how I started on Twitch,
and I gave some background and a little bit of information
about what the struggles had been for me,
and how I overcame some of the barriers that were there
and how the community can sort of work together.
So I gave some explanation about that to people
and offered some ideas about,
for people who hadn't yet streamed and wanted to think about
what they might want to do if they wanted to stream.
And so I gave some tips, helpful tips,
and other ideas to others who might be interested
in doing similar things who might be afraid
that they've had some barriers to overcome.
- And so have you, on that note,
have you come across many other deaf streamers
and would you like to see more?
- Oh yes, definitely.
First of all, I've seen many.
I've actually met with, about three years ago I think it was
I started small, there were just a few people,
but then after a while, people would start to self-identify
that they were deaf as well and they said,
"Oh, I've been watching a stream",
and then I would find that there were more and people
coming to my channel and, as well as not just deaf people
but people who can hear as well,
and so some people would ask me questions about
becoming a straightener and I was really happy
they took the opportunity to ask that
'cause I was happy to answer those questions.
And so, yeah, I would really love to see,
to your second question,
I'd really love to see more deaf streamers out there.
Because there's also, there are deaf
and hard of hearing teams on Twitch as well.
And I think that would be great
to see more of that happening.
And get more people on board to stream,
who would like to see more and more people join us and
I think it will be helpful to have
other deaf people as well as people who are hard of hearing
and we can just all get together and have fun and play.
And I think it'd be great for the audience.
Honestly, I'm really happy to see that this
has been happening over the past couple of years.
At first I thought, oh, I'm not really sure
how big this is gonna go, but after some time,
I've seen quite a few more people showing up and I think
things are really positive for it to continue to grow,
so I'm really happy about that.
- That's excellent that's it's so positive.
Do you find that using,
tagging yourself as part of those groups really helps
and helps build that community?
- Honestly, for me, yes, I'd have to say yes.
I want people to know that I'm deaf because
if you think about it,
if you think about,
often, well, deafness is a hidden disability, right?
So that can be a bit of a problem.
People don't know that a person might be deaf.
It's not easy to identify.
So you see somebody who comes on
and they might be saying to me, "Hey Phoenix, hey Phoenix",
and if they don't know I'm deaf,
there's no way of knowing, either in person or online.
So by being very,
very out about the fact that I'm deaf and
I tag myself as deaf, I think it helps other people as well
recognize this about me.
And I know that there's some people who might be a bit shy
and don't really want to self-identify
as saying that I'm deaf,
but it really varies depending on the gamer,
but I personally feel like it's important.
'Cause I think I'm,
I think it can be overwhelming sometimes.
Maybe some people are afraid to say, "I'm deaf",
and then that might bring on a little bit more attention
than they want to have to respond to or answer questions.
So it's an individual choice I believe,
but I'm happy to be clear about who I am and my identity.
So, I think it helps people as well,
to help people understand me.
Helps them to understand me and for me to also
be able to communicate with them better.
- It's great that you're so confident
and able to be so open about this.
Recently, a...
- Yeah, thanks.
- Recently you are even able to speak at a panel,
in Chicago I believe,
for Global Accessibility Awareness Day on May 18th?
Are you able to tell us more about that?
- Yes, yes I can.
Well, this was a group in Chicago called A11y,
or A11y Chi, A-1-1-Chi.
A-1-1-Y-C-H-I is the name of the group.
And there was a group of,
there's a bunch of deaf people who were interested in
inclusive gaming, and so they wanted to try
to promote this idea of inclusive gaming,
inclusivity to technology and include diversity within
the gaming community.
And the event was great, it was fantastic.
It got more people who were interested in being involved
and talked about accessibility in technology,
such as not only gaming but, well for example, for example,
the use of captions and how important captions are
in a lot of these technologies.
Sometimes captioning that's created by developers
is actually too small and difficult to read,
so the more we raise awareness
of the importance of captioning,
that the captioning needs to be appropriate
for people to feel like they can participate and understand,
I think it's important to let them know that,
let the developers know that
these words have to be clearly legible.
And then because it also,
it also helps people not only who are deaf
but people who don't read English as their first language,
and so it's important to make sure that
there's that level of accessibility with captions,
and developers need to keep this in mind.
So I think the whole point around the panel
was to talk about some of the ways that
technology can be improved to promote much more inclusivity,
for people like myself and others who can benefit
from some of these just adaptations
to the technology and games.
And I think developers need to develop
their own understanding of how important that is,
and getting some sort of a background
around some of these experiences I think would help them.
- Yes, absolutely.
So on that note, what do you think,
what are your thoughts on the current
accessibility of games for deaf people?
Is it generally accessible or
do we have a long way to go in that regard?
Just from your opinion and your experience.
- To be honest, we do see huge changes and developments
in technology, right?
But at the same time I think that some of the
uses of technology that are more,
that can be more inclusive to people
is not growing as fast as technology is growing.
I mean, it's about having deaf people give feedback
and have them involved in some part of the process
of that development.
I'm not sure how they get that information
from their user community but
I do see that there is a bit of a struggle now
in a lot of the games.
Not all of them are that accessible.
So, that's why I'm noticing that most of the new games
that are coming out now,
I'm noticing some of them do have captions,
which is a good thing, but again,
I have to keep reiterating the fact that
the size of the text is so small and it's,
it makes it so that it's really not even accessible,
like nice try, but it's not accessible.
And then sometimes there'll be,
the game will be interacting with the player and
there'll be a voice of a character
but it doesn't come up on the captioning,
so the captioning isn't always consistent.
So there needs to be some changes and improvements with that
I think across the board on some of these games
but hopefully we, as a group of deaf gamers,
those of us who are involved, who keep supporting each other
and share our thoughts and ideas
and maybe try to give some feedback
to the people who are developing these games and say,
"Please, could you make these fixes,
"'cause they're really important to us
"and to your user community?"
'Cause it's really important for their product,
we're using their products, and so they need to know that
in their development and changes that they make.
And so I'm actually gonna give you a spoiler alert,
let you know developers, Mr. and Mrs. Developers,
we are actually paying for your games,
so it'd be great if you could keep us mind.
Thanks.
(Jaymii laughing)
- I think that's very true.
So Phoenix, we talked about subtitles a lot for
game accessibility, but are there any other features
or things we can bring out to help immerse
deaf gamers in games further?
- Yeah.
So normally, when people can hear the game,
a gamer might be playing and they're fully immersed
in the sounds of the game, but as a deaf person,
there are very few ideas out there.
Sometimes people put headphones on and they can
feel the vibrations of the sound through the headphones
if it's loud enough.
Sometimes, people would put the speakers
aside their chair, and they can feel the vibration
of the noise vibrating the chair a little bit.
But then I've come across this other thing,
this new, interesting,
pack really, and I'll tell you a little bit about it.
It's called a SubPac.
And it's,
the way it works is you, the gamer, will wear it, right?
And you connect it to the game,
so the game gets connected directly to the pack.
And there's a unit here on the side.
And the headphone jack just hooks into it.
Then the gamer wears it
and it will create this sort of vibration
or movement as you're playing through the game,
like you might get, like Destiny 2 for example,
you might be playing a game like Destiny.
You're in the middle of the game and you come across these
characters and these,
and something will be happening behind you
and there'll be some sort of vibration
or some movement of the sound,
and it'll move the pack in a way that the gamer
can actually feel that something's going on
and it will almost alert you to the experience of the game.
So it hooks like this,
and the pack attaches to the backpack here.
And, you just might shuffling through a scene and
I think it's great because I think this is gonna become
very popular for other people who can actually use it.
It may be something that can applicable to watching movies
or even virtual reality games.
I think to be able to have a pack like this on you
and experience a virtual reality game too might be,
it'd be something that this pack could be used for.
So I see lots of potential uses.
It'd be really nice to find these types of replacements
for a deaf gamer to have the full experience,
or fuller experience of the game,
despite not being able to hear the game.
So yeah, this pack is great.
Also,
the vest is tight, it fits on you,
but there's also this other thing that I want to show you.
There's this one. - Ooh.
- And you might be thinking, "Well, what's that?"
Well--
(backpack unzipping)
Look at what we've got here.
Look at this. - What is that?
- You might be thinking, "Yeah, what is that?"
Well, let me show you.
You put this right here on your chair,
and then you get this vibration and sensation
as you're playing the game.
And it comes up through your back.
I mean, you just imagine, so you also have the pack on,
the vest, and then you have this unit
that's on the back of the chair, just imagine.
- Ah.
- One good thing is that actually,
you can wear the vest externally outside,
but if you're home and you're sitting in your chair
and you're gaming and you don't want to wear the vest,
this is another unit that you can use
and it creates a very similar effect.
So you're leaning back in your chair
and you're just enjoying the game
and you are fully immersed in it and
more ways than just visual, it's great.
It's amazing, the technology, it's really amazing.
So when I go online, if you want to order it,
it's actually, I think it's at a site called www.subpac.com.
And there's where I got it.
So, I love it.
Technology.
- Thank you for sharing that with us.
On a side note, I'm really jealous of your chair.
You have an awesome gaming chair.
- Yeah, you're right.
I waited a really long time for this to go on sale,
and when it did, I picked that up real quick.
I got a good price on it.
I was watching it for quite some time and once I got it,
the first day I sat in the chair and played,
I literally sat in, I thought,
"Oh man I don't think I'm gonna ever get out of this chair."
I've managed to watch TV, I sit it in to game.
I think, "Wow, this is great, yeah, it's fabulous.
"It's really comfortable."
- I'm still saving up for my own.
- It's got back lumbar support,
it's really helpful for your back
to have a lumbar support like that.
Super comfortable, yeah.
- We're gonna talk about that in a Health Potion episode
coming up later this year so definitely--
- What'd you say?
- We're going to be talking about lumbar support
and good chairs in a later episode of Health Potion
this year so it's definitely,
definitely something to keep in mind.
- Yeah, you're right, you're right, it's good.
- Chris, is there anything else you,
I mean Phoenix, is there anything else
you wanted to talk about?
- No, I think I've,
I showed you some interesting things here.
Right.
You might have seen my tweet about Twitch,
TwitchCon, there's gonna be a panel there and
TwitchCon,
in Long Beach, it's gonna be held in Long Beach,
near LA in California.
So that tweet I sent out and me and several friends
are gonna be manning a panel and we'll be talking about
how streaming,
how it works when you're streaming
and you've got people with disabilities who are
enjoying the stream.
And my colleague Zero will be with me.
And there are people who will use wheelchairs as well.
They'll be there to talk a bit about
how they manage their time with
their health issues, medicine, as well as how they
manage that all with their enjoyment of gaming.
And also
epilepsy, people who have epilepsy for example,
that's a disability that we'll be
talking a bit about that.
And yeah, there's also, people who suffer from fibromyalgia.
People who have that nerve disorder called fibromyalgia,
I guess, it's called fibromyalgia and
we're gonna be talking a bit about how different types of
disabilities, how that sort of works for someone
who might be a gamer, how it would work for them.
- That's awesome, I'll put a link to TwitchCon
in the description below.
Hopefully anyone who is able to make it to LA
can make it there.
That would be excellent.
And hopefully, one day TwitchCon will come to Australia.
Fingers crossed, we just had VidCon,
so maybe TwitchCon will come here too.
- That would be real nice, yeah.
Yeah, I'd actually love to go.
I've been wanting to get to, I wanted to get to PAX,
but I didn't make it so, I've never been to PAX.
- If it makes you...
- But I think it'd be nice.
- If it makes you feel better,
I also have never been to PAX,
and even though it's in Australia this year,
I can't make it.
So, I'm very disappointed, everyone I know is going.
- Oh yeah, I know.
Hopefully I can go, maybe next year, right?
Maybe next year you can go. - Next year, next year.
- Right.
- So just now, just to finish it off,
I would say one, one easy question but,
I say easy but sometimes I find
this is the most hard question of all to ask,
what are your favorite games?
- This.
- Amazing!
- I just love fighting games.
Sorry, I just love the fighting games.
Guilty Gear Xrd, I love it.
Street Fighter.
Guilty Gear Xrd.
All of it, King of Fighters.
The competition is like,
sometimes I feel like I am actually, I feel,
I gain a sense of confidence just by playing the game.
It's fantastic, it's really fun.
So those are some of my favorite games.
And there's several others.
I would say Kingdom Hearts, the Kingdom Hearts series.
And the reason I love that series is because
when I was younger, I kinda went through a hard time
and I found that I wasn't really, I'm not a,
I wasn't a very, I wouldn't call myself
a really social person back then, and so the game,
by playing Kingdom Hearts,
really started to help me understand what it meant
to have friends and to be a friend.
So that impacted me.
And I learned a lot about myself
by just even playing that game.
And I just thought it was beautiful, it's just beautiful.
So, yeah, I have a special spot in my heart for that game.
And I think everybody should actually try that game as well.
It's quite fun.
I recommend it.
I mean, and it's interesting,
you might shed a few tears while you're playing, it's good.
- It's really great when...
- Yeah.
There are actually a few other favorites.
Metal Gear, the Metal Gear Solid series.
Yeah, I really love those.
And they're kind of like spy games.
I love, I enjoy that type of game, that's a lot of fun.
And,
I think it's a cool game.
Another game that I really like is called Yakuza,
the Yakuza series.
That, I like that game a lot.
Another one, I think it's really cool because
there's kind of like, there's a dark story, so,
but I mean, there have been tons of games
that I really like.
But these are just to name a few of my favorites.
- Well thank you, I know that's not an easy question.
I always have trouble answering that question because
games can be so impactful in our lives in so many ways,
as you say, it can either make you feel powerful
or it can really be heartwarming so,
I just love hearing everyone's stories.
- Yeah, yeah that's great, yeah.
- Well, thank you very much for joining us today Phoenix.
I really appreciate you taking the time for this.
If you haven't already, everyone,
please go and check out his Twitch.
We'll put a link in the description below.
So that's DeafGamersTV.
Yeah.
And we will see you on the internet.
- That's right.
Thank you.
- Thank you very much.
See you.
- Bye bye, bye everyone.
- Thank you so much, Phoenix,
for that big in-depth interview.
I appreciate you taking so much of your time
with so much insight and clarity in this issue.
- So good to see that he so passionately
wanted to talk to us.
- Thank you for talking to us.
If you want to talk to us, please let us know,
send us an email.
- So Jaymii, you and I sat down with Karl,
who has a unique disability.
He's deaf in one ear.
So it'll be good to hear what he has to say about this.
- Let's go to Karl.
And today, we are joined by Karl.
Hello, Karl, thanks for joining us.
- Hello, hi.
Thanks for having me.
- So Karl, if you don't mind, we're just gonna jump
straight into some questions.
Because we're just eager.
So what has your experience been like
as a partially deaf software engineer student
wanting to get into the games industry?
- It's been pretty good so far.
Luckily, my partial deafness has not been
too much of an obstacle in my studies.
I was even offered, when I started,
to have a special earpiece,
and the teacher would have a microphone.
- Oh, wow.
- Yeah, so it's not the first time I've been offered that
at the school, but I kind of turned that down because
typically, I am fine, right?
Unless it's a really big room and I'm at the back,
I'm usually fine.
But that's the kind of things that
people can offer you to aid you.
So that's nice.
- That is good.
- Yeah.
It's good to know they would provide something like that.
So how far along are you on your studies?
- I just started my fourth year out of five.
- Oh, wow.
- So, yeah. - Outstanding.
- So it's getting pretty exciting now.
Like the first two years are basically just math,
and then you kind of get into more and more programming
and it's really fun.
- So are you working on any projects at the moment?
- Currently, not much aside from just school assignments
like artificial intelligence and performance optimization,
but I do typically try to have some kind of project going on
just to practice and
just try out fun things.
- So not much, just a bit of AI, just a bit of this.
- Yeah, you know? - Casual, casual, casual.
- Just some machine learning, it's nothing.
- Yeah. (laughing)
But we did have, earlier this year, we did have
what we called the small game project.
And then, we are like six people per team,
and we get eight weeks to make a game from scratch.
- Oh, wow. - And the teachers, yeah,
the teachers act as the customers
who come and check on us and are,
we try to
ask them questions to figure out what it is they want
out of their product, and it's really fun.
We made a racing game in a little tube,
so there's no up and down, you just go around this tube,
and forward. - Nice.
- Yeah, it was really exciting and it was
especially fun to see people play it.
And next year, we're gonna have the big game project,
where it's like, we're gonna be 12 people working
three to four months on one game,
and it's just gonna like, Jesus.
Ooh.
I'm really excited.
- And so what do you have to do post your study?
- What was it?
- What do you have to do once your studies complete?
- Oh, well,
let's see.
In the final year, we're gonna be
going to different, to some studio for practical stuff.
And the typical outcome of that is that
you might get employed by them afterwards.
So I'm kind of like thinking, okay,
which studio do I want to aim at?
Because luckily, in Sweden, we have some good choices.
We have Massive and we have Dice.
And we have Paradox in the north.
- Spoiled for choice!
- Yeah, so it's really
gonna have to pick wisely, you know?
But my hope is that I maybe end up
at, I don't know, Massive.
There are some new,
there are some new studio in Stockholm as well,
I think which is also owned by Ubisoft.
So there might be a chance,
considering they're looking for hundreds of employees
that I might get in there but we'll see.
- Our fingers are crossed for you.
- Yeah, that's great to hear.
Over here in Australia, I'm pretty sure we only
hear stories of small NGOs closing down.
So it's good to know that it's good over there.
- I know, we're look, ooh look, we made a mobile game!
And that's,
that's kind of all we've done at the moment right now.
Sorry, go on.
- Were you also wondering what I will do
as like a profession or--
- Yeah, absolutely. - Yeah.
'Cause I'm currently probably
going to be aiming at doing rendering stuff,
like the rendering engine.
So I better learn OpenGL and DirectX and Vulkan,
keep myself up to date on those things.
And that can easily get pretty complicated.
Yeah.
But, I think it's fun.
I mean, you get to make the games look pretty basically so--
- I really appreciate a pretty, good-looking game so
we're all uber excited, I'm excited,
I'm excited that people like you exist to,
happy to knock that all out for us.
- And it's even better if the game looks good
and runs well, so--
- That's true.
So now another thing is that we talked a lot about
subtitles in assisting deaf people,
but deafness is a spectrum, and for people like yourself,
you have a unique barrier, and that's stereo.
So do you want to explain more about that?
- Oh, absolutely.
Stereo is such a big problem.
It's, subtitles help a lot.
So the big problem is that, in most games,
stereo is incredibly over-exaggerated as far as I know.
It's like,
if someone is just slightly to the left of you,
it's like most of the audio is in the left speaker.
So in games such as Half Life 2,
where you have NPCs standing around and doing things,
and you have to, you can walk around,
I kind of have to place myself in a way that
they are always kind of to the right,
or the character that's speaking is currently
kind of to the right of me, and that,
that is a big problem because in some cutscenes,
the character might be walking in a tight corridor
and you're supposed to be walking on the right.
So I have to walk backwards,
just to make sure that I hear them.
So subtitles help a lot because then
at least if I miss something, I can read it.
And this happens a lot in games like Skyrim
where you might have similar types of cutscenes or just,
most games really, first person experiences
the most, I think.
- So would have a slider that can change from
stereo to mono really help with that sort of thing?
- Yes.
You don't know how much I wish
most games had like, just a button or anything,
just to switch on mono.
And I've told my friends about this.
I've told 'em like, oh, I wish I could switch to mono
because it's a problem, and everyone is shocked
that it's not an option,
and especially in the operating system,
you would think that maybe some driver would have a switch.
But every time I go look, I'm surprised that there is none.
- You're almost more likely to see a surround sound option
than a mono option,
even though it's pretty easy to implement.
- Yeah, exactly, that's what surprises me most.
It's like, surround sound is way more complicated than mono
and yet there is no option.
There was one time where I thought I had found the option,
and I went into my driver and I found this balance slider
from left to right.
And I was like, "Oh my God, is this is?"
And I slid it to the right, and nothing's changed.
And I was like, "Wait, what happened?"
And it turns out, it only muted my left speaker,
which was already useless so--
- Oh!
- Oh, I was kind of disappointed.
- That was gonna be a question I was gonna ask is
is there any games who've done it right
that you know of, that you can point as examples?
- Hmm, not that I know of.
And there might be some that actually did it right,
but maybe I didn't notice because if it works right,
you're not supposed to notice it.
Yeah, I don't, I don't really know of any.
- I feel like I've seen a mono, stereo checkbox
in older games, but that's probably when it didn't
matter so much.
- Oh yeah, maybe like stereo headsets were a new thing.
- Yeah. - Yeah, yeah.
Then maybe a game like, I think Diablo might have had it
from memory and I might be wrong,
but it wouldn't have mattered in Diablo.
- Yeah, no.
I really wish people would just implement that,
and if I can, in the future,
I would kind of try to push studios
to implement that, just because it's,
it should be so simple.
- Yeah.
So I've got another question for you,
and it probably isn't as relevant
as we thought it would be when we wrote it out.
Would your deafness inform your decisions
when you are creating software for games?
I guess there would be the one
where you probably suggest a mono switch,
like we've just talked about.
- Yeah, like,
I'm not quite sure if what you mean is like
when I start a project?
If I decide to do something specific
because I'm half deaf?
- It's more that like, being more aware of the challenges
that I guess deaf people face
how that informs decisions on the software level.
- Hmm.
I'm not sure.
Because I'm half deaf,
I haven't really done much with audio.
I haven't really programmed
that part of the engine voluntarily because
I always think that, "I better leave that to someone
"who knows what most people are gonna experience."
But on the flip side, I could offer a lot of insight into
how to make it better for people like me.
So those things do have an effect.
Hmm, what was the other thing I was thinking about?
Shoot.
- It's okay.
We can come back if you can think of anything.
'Cause we've got the most hard,
most difficult question of all
that we have to finish up.
- Hmm, all right.
- Why don't you take it away, Jaymii?
- So, what are some of your favorite games?
- Ooh, you know, despite being
some of the worst offenders, I would have to say Half Life 2
and Portal and Portal 2 and Oblivion,
because those games kind of sparked my interest.
I've always been interested in games,
I've always played games,
but it was when I played Oblivion that I kind of realized
that, "Oh, people make these things.
"These are things that people craft in big studios", and
I became really interested in the aspect of making
a game like that.
Then I got the Orange Box, which contained Half Life 2
and Episode 1 and 2 and Portal,
and I played Portal first because I love puzzle games,
and I was blown away by the game mechanic,
which I had never seen before.
Oh, it's such a great game.
- Yeah.
- And it's so tightly designed, all of it.
And so, I just kind of thought that like,
"Well, Portal is now the game I've ever played.
"There's no way that Half Life 2 can live up
"to that expectation."
And then I was surprised again.
It's all such a great experience.
And I really wish for more games like that.
And there is a benefit to the whole open cutscene,
where you have control over the character
and that is that I can place myself
in a position where I can hear them.
In a lot of games where it's just,
they put you in a place and you have to listen
to what people say, well, I'm kind of stuck, right?
I will have to do this to hear what they're saying.
It just doesn't really work.
- Yeah.
- But I love those games.
They gave me a development kit
that I can make my own stuff with and
when I realized that I can make levels,
I can make textures, I can kind of make models,
I kind of realized that, "Well, if I want to make something
"of my own, I need to learn programming."
So I got into that.
And now I'm here, studying it.
And it's just, it's all thanks to those games, I think.
- I think it's always beautiful to hear people's stories
of how they got into their passion
and just about how it feeds you
from all different levels.
And it's really, really, I'm excited for you.
- Oh, thanks.
I hope one day that I can be part of a game
that inspires someone else.
That's really the goal, I think.
- That's beautiful.
Has anyone got anything they'd like to say
before we wrap up?
- I'd just like to say thank you guys for
having this talk with people because
I haven't really seen much of it.
Every time I searched for people who
have the same experience and such,
everyone is complaining that there is no software solution.
The only solution I found is that
you get a little piece of hardware,
which you connect to your computer,
that is supposed to convert stereo to mono,
and that's, it works, but it's not convenient.
- Yeah. - Yeah.
- So I think it's a good idea to bring it up,
and maybe someday,
studios will realize that
they can just have a little button just for, yeah.
- Well thank you so much for sharing that insight and being,
to give us something to share to the world
because it is, without people like you,
who are willing to talk about this,
we can't really talk about it with anyone.
So, yeah.
I really, really appreciate you.
- Thanks for having me.
- Yeah, me too, thanks very much for joining us.
It's really insightful to hear from you.
- And we will keep in touch and we look forward to hearing
all about your big projects in the future and hopefully,
we'll be playing your games before we know it.
- Great, thank you very much.
- All right, thanks Karl.
- All right, thanks.
- Goodbye. - See you later, bye.
- So after I interviewed with Karl,
we decided to investigate in
what options you actually do have for turning audio
to mono on a PC.
And we spent like quite a while
trying to figure this out, didn't we?
- Yeah, absolutely.
We spent about, I think it was at least half an hour.
- It was definitely at least half an hour.
- Clicking through Windows, trying to find it.
And when we say mono, we don't mean
just panning everything into the left speaker,
we mean actually summing left and right into mono.
We did eventually find that Windows has the option.
It's just very, very hard to find.
- So, if you search Windows Accessibility in your computer,
it'll take you through your ease of access options,
but the mono option isn't in there.
But, if you type in the Themes,
then ease of access through the Themes way,
then you have, if you scroll down into other options
and then scroll all the way down to the bottom,
then it's there.
It's ridiculously weird and convoluted
and it's just weird that there's two versions of
ease of access in Windows 10.
- I found this by complete accident
right as I was about to give up.
And even then, it doesn't show up on my computer,
only on yours, Jaymii.
- Yeah, so it works on my computer.
And thankfully, it also works on Karl's computer.
So we emailed Karl to let him know our discovery,
and he's very thrilled, 'cause now he can,
when he's playing PC games at least, he has that option.
So hopefully, if anyone is a Mac user
or finds it optional like this on one of their consoles,
please email us, let us know
so we can share it with the world
because it will make people's lives easier.
Well, let's finish up this podcast.
- All right. - Back to us in the past.
- Du-du-du-du, du-du-du-du, du-du-du-du.
[record scratch] - wait wait wait wait
Phew. At the time of recording
it was not possible to turn a console
to mono but now it is
thank you very much to Ian Hamilton
for passing on this red hot tip
straight from the press
um to turn your xbox one into mono
you can do it by finding your way to settings
then ease of access
audio
and then making it a mono output
Ian Hamilton does a lot of great talks on
accessibility in gaming
do check him out it's ianhamilton_ on twitter
and we'll put a link to one if his talks
in description below
check him out, he's great stuff
okay that's it back back to the past
du-du-du-du-du-du-du-du-du
Thank you so much Karl for having a chat with us.
It was really insightful to hear what you had to say.
That brings us to the end of the episode.
Thank you very much to Peter Payne, Susan, Phoenix and Karl.
You can see, you can go check out their stuff on,
you can check out Susan on oneoddgamergirl.net.
You can check out Phoenix on DeafGamersTV,
and you can check the other ones out,
we will make sure we put everything in the description.
- Yes, thank you so much for taking your time
and sharing your insight.
If you are part of a minority group
and want to share your insight with us
and be on our future FedCast episode,
please contact us at--
- [Both] Fedcastpodcast@gmail.com.
- And you can catch me, Jaymii Plays, at Jaymii_Plays,
that's J-A-Y-M-I-I_Plays.
- And my name's Danfriedz, you can find me on Twitter
@Danfriedz, with a Z.
- Thanks very much, guys!
- Thank you very much.
See you later. - Bye.
- I didn't know you were a girl.
(both laughing)
- Thanks, thanks Dan.
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