We wanted to talk about modding and actually, modding the game.
So, you guys think about that.
It's utilizing the same engine
Upgraded, of course
So...
- Same engine as The Witcher, then?
Yeah, yeah. The Witcher 3. People do mod The Witcher 3, there's
actually I was perusing those mods earlier today and there is a lot of them.
There's a lot of skin mods and character mods as well as they're being mostly a
lot of UI mods and tweaks and changes to the combat abilities, the flow and that kind of stuff
So there are mods present and apparently they are ok
they've made this statement before numerous times, that they are ok with
having the players of the game mod and tweak the game in
various ways and then showing off YouTube videos about their creation
They're very open to that, just like Bethesda is it could move to
do this if you're a big company modding extends the life of your video game and
Skyrim still racks up several hundreds of thousands of dollars
every year with new game purchases
- Mm-hmm and they're even there are even more open and
permissive than Bethesda in a lot of ways.
He was telling us that
they're okay with you digging Witcher assets and using them in other games.
They're really all about...
Do whatever you want, apparently. Our notable other friends is telling us
Not exactly because they have a REDkit and you have MODkit and
Witcher 3 doesn't have the REDkit because they said that they were going
to release it but i believe that they didn't in the end. Did they?
I believe they didn't.
Please correct me if I'm wrong. But I believe that the
biggest mode support that was REDkit, were you could change everything you want
In the end wasn't released...
I don't think it was, but it has to do with the collection of the games
It's nearly impossible to mod Frostbite. It's not an easy thing to do.
You can mod Unreal a lot easier than you can mod Frostbite.
There are dozens and dozens
of mods for games that, in this particular case,
there's hundreds of mods for the REDengine There's zero mods for...
Which is sad because there's like zero mods to fix all of the issues that are with
Mass Effect: Andromeda.
That game probably would have
done a lot better if you open up modding and let the players fix the problems.
Just saying. There's a lot of issues that the players can fix in a few minutes
It takes months for the company to get around fixing
And there's still issues in Andromeda that will never be fixed
because support for the game officially got pulled but where
But where that encountered some problems is multiplayer.
So this is where we can expect some issues.
Because depending on the type multiplayer there is,
That can shut down and lock down a lot of modding potential in certain games
It's pretty simple that modders need to fix a game because developers should do that.
I'm not blaming developers because developers do
what they are told to, which means that if they didn't fix it, it wasn't for their own decisions.
But it's like Fallout 4.
There were a lot of mods to correct issues from the game
And it's sad modders need to do that. Because modders are people that
have knowledge in programming that is...
Let's call it similar, maybe not similar to developers but they do a job
that should be paid if they are fixing issues of the game.
One different thing is that if they want to expand a new thing of the game.
But fixing issues it's sad that someone needs to do it for free because
the company didn't take the effort to patch the game appropriately
And John Smith: If modding was simple every game would do it, basically
Modding is not simple
I'm not wording good right now
- Welcome to my world!
The Fallout 4 modding tool and an engine that you can basically just sort
of rip apart and do anything you want. That engine is so open...
You can do almost anything to it.
Even with all the tools in the world, modding is very gated process
I've been asked about mod support
and I'm basing this on what what they did
with The Witcher 3 and they didn't release the REDkit where you can put
Where you can botch everything down and make all the changes you want
But they did the MODkit.
And they said that after the game was released
They were going to release the REDkit. Something that they didn't do.
I don't know if they are planning to do so in the future, but at this point they didn't do it
So I believe that maybe for Cyberpunk 2077 we're going to find something similar.
Modders are going to have the MODkit, what they are going to be able to change...
Not everything but a lot of things. And maybe the REDkit for the
new REDengine is going to be available like a year, or a couple of
years after the game is released.
So here's the issue that you run into when you do release engine tools.
When you release engine tools that allows people to basically create games within your engine.
If your engine is something that
you are very covetous of it potentially opens up some problems here and there
And then you have to start a legal song and dance for a bunch of things
You have to send cease and desist orders and you have to really
restrict certain things that are going on.
And it's very rare that a company
will do this for a new engine at all, ever.
A good example,
Original dev tools and a lot of tools released for the original...
For the original.... oh my goodness, Brain fart.
- Again, welcome to my world.
Mental thickness
- Dragon Age Origins
In origins you had the ability to mod the game a lot and there
were a lot of mods for that game and kept that game going for a very, very long time
But as soon as they came out with Dragon Age 2, they cut almost all
mod support because it's not something that they were... It's not something that
they wanted to have people have access to because it was a new engine
So all mod support got cut and it's funny because more people were
playing origins 2 years later then they were playing the second game
You're sitting there going to scratching hair going. Well, hello you.
It's a major issue here and the same thing with same thing with Mass Effect 1 & 2
versus Mass Effect 3 and it just like
Why does a company do this? But at any rate, in this particular regard
I think they canceled the release of the tools for two reasons.
One: they were really busy
And two: they realized that this this tool could impact Cyberpunk
because it is still very much the same engine it's upgraded, obviously
But you could still get in and mess with the code and if they were doing a lot of
multiplayer content, then releasing dev tools is a really bad idea
because people can hack the game non-stop and you have so many issues with that and
you end up creating a lot gameplay retention issues if you let
people constantly hack the game and mess things up.
So that could complicate the multiplayer aspect of it.
- And I think that's why they didn't release the tools
I feel very confident in saying that...
If I was in their position I would have done what they did
which was released some modding tools to change the skins
and stuff like that because you want that . That's good.
It's never not good. And this is one of the things that Warframe is doing well
Over top of Destiny and why Warframe is is having so much more player
New players coming into that game is because they allow the community to create content for the game
and they allow the community to create stuff that helps
If I want to go in and I want to buy skin for a particular Warframe that I like using
There's all kinds of stuff that have been created by the community
Whereas you do not have that ability in Destiny 1 or 2
the community is restricted from adding content to the game they're you know
They're an amusement park. They're not a giant sandbox
and because of that kind of concept you run into a lot of these issues
So do you think we'll see a lot of mod support then?
Or will a be in limited mod support just to avoid messy multiplayers?
I think in this particular case, we will see them do release a mod tool
Especially for like skinning and outfits and stuff like that
Because that is like I said: only stupid companies don't allow that to get out
Only people who are so controlling and vindictive and selfish
do not allow that to get out because it really extends the gameplay of your game
When you can play through the game and you can give
Gerald a My Little Pony outfit that that adds replayability to the game
And some people will play a game just because they can do that
Actually, the long life of the game is something that it seems that CD Projekt is putting a lot of effort into.
So if they really want the game to be everlasting
Not only like The Witcher 3. In The Witcher 3 the sales are everlasting
but people just play it once and that's it.
But if they really want to keep the community engaged in the game
I believe that mods are a very important part of this.
And this also includes that they allow mods for consoles like Bethesda did
And I think there must be ways that they can sort of lock out mods from a multiplayer aspect
while still allowing you to mess with the single-player.
I know they want seamless multiplayer, but if your modding the game
that kind of breaks your immersion. Anyway, so I would think there would have to be a way
they could check the integrity of the game that you're running against what's required for
Yeah, it is a fight all the time to keep cheaters out of a game
Look at Grand Theft Auto Online.
They constantly are fighting with cheaters in the multiplayer.
"Look, it's okay for you to create mods"
But they had that debacle where they were like "Oh. No more remote support for that"
But at the same time, you can't screw over
your player base by allowing some trolls to destroy the world
And so that's this tightrope and this constant fighting
Every once in a while they have to purge cheaters and people who are making the game not fun for others
It's difficult to say because this it's a fairly touchy issue
It's like freedom of speech issue for some. "I want to be able to mod this game
and I don't care what other people do
You give us the right to mod the game. Period."
No ability to debate this issue. You give us tools to mod the game. Period.
Or else I won't play it. That's the way some people approach modding
And this is insane because with just a handful of mods
I can close down your multiplayer experience completely
by filling up wherever you are with an endless supply of...
When you're dealing with multiplayer it's
obviously a different thing than when you're just playing with single-player
and you want to mess with the world as much as you want. That's fine.
I didn't play The Witcher 3 with mods
I don't know what kind of mods were out there,
But I believe that if the complete MODkit to modify the engine is
not up there but they have the MODkit, which is a shorter version,
Does it allow cheats? apart from uncover things that already are in the game?
No, you... doesn't exactly necessarily open up the ability to just cheat.
But it does open up the ability.
like I said you can with some tools
But there are some tools that if you go multiplayer you can you
can completely ruin somebody else's experience by just creating an item that
allows you to summon like a million cheese wheels
And you can port yourself into a game and be like "Hey guys, what's going on'"
Three people are playing you're like hey cool, ok. "I'm gonna leave this item here..."
"Why is it doing a countdown?" "Oh, you know, for fun"
And then you log out and then like three seconds later a million cheese wheels have been
summoned and it crashes your game, it crashes the server. Because the server
can't handle a million cheese wheels being spawned and falling from the sky.
Although that's funny, it's also gets old really fast
"I just want to play the game and some asshole keeps coming in
and crashing my game every 15 minutes because he thinks it's funny"
And now it's a meme to do it now everybody's doing it
For that to affect the entire server that item has to exist on the server and...
I imagine they're not gonna let anything onto a multiplayer server that they
haven't vetted in terms of user created content
It depends.
The example I'm using right now is this closed system where you are hosting it
on your own kind of server that you own or a server that
that essentially you control. In which case if you have allow modded items
to come into the world then the server has to update the information
back and forth and that's that's how that scenario exists.
Now in a scenario where it's a static server and you're logging into play
you can still cheat with that creator tool.
The server will try to not let you
but then you can try and work around the server rules and that's what you have
with Grand Theft Auto. With Grand Theft Auto Online there's always a
handful of people who are pushing the engine to cheat
And the engine is always trying to ban them from allowing them to do that.
But there's this concept back and forth of one week the hackers
have free run over the entire game and then the next patch comes in
and then a handful of them are banned and and then life
gets back to normal and it's this pendulum swinging
from left to right of the the devs have controlled the server
And the hackers have control of the server in a rudimentary way that allows
them to cheat and get access. And of course, they get banned. But then they
just get new accounts and it's this never-ending wheel of insanity that can
result if your team is not on it 24/7. Which they do require
a team to monitor that game constantly and even in games like
World of Warcraft and other MMO's you constantly have people who are able to
exploit the system to be able to create teleports and map hacks
And it's a constant issue for the devs of constantly fighting that
So in that regard that affects the tools that the company
will give the players to mod the game, because those same tools can be used to
butcher the game experience for other people.
And that's a pity.
People who wants to do that because they ruin the experience
for the rest, and as Lee subtly said: approved by CDPR mods would work.
Yes, I believe that having a list of...
approved mods yeah
A list of approved mods would help but as usual there are people whose
knowledge in programming is beyond needing the tools to hack the system
So it's not about the tools. Is about the intention of people.
Yeah absolutely.
I've said this a few times, this company is not stupid.
They understand that giving players tools to create like outfits and stuff will only
help the game. In one case they could monetize it and the other case they just
allow people to freely trade it and if they want it to get in if this
server is kind of like a GTA Online kind of thing then they can
incorporate an easy submission tool or francium has it to where you submit your
ideas you look through it they make sure that it's not you know it's not lewd or
or in bad taste or you know it doesn't have a Nazi symbol on it and then
they're like okay this is approved and then they add it to the game and the
players can play it back, utilize it within the game.
that if they want to make this game last in a multiplayer landscape.
If it is multiplayer then that is a perfect way to do it. "Make your crazy cyberpunk
clothes and we'll take the best ones and we'll add it to the game and we might
even make a marketplace for it. I know, some people have strong feelings on that
expect that that concept of doing that is a decent idea and it's something that
that does tend to work quite well.
I know that people have strong feelings about that.
I remember when Creation Club went out for Fallout and Skyrim
There were people saying "Oh my God. Paying money for mods"
But on the other hand I would be happy to pay the modders
for their job. Because they can't perceive any kind of money
for the job they do because they spent hours programming
this mods but they don't have the rights, the copyrights over the things that they
are creating mods on. Which means that they cannot perceive any kind of money for them
And Creation Club gave modders the same status as developers
Which I believe that is great. I would love to see something similar in
Cyberpunk 2077 and also because the copyright laws work in Japan in a
different way that they work in United States. For instance, that's why when we
had mods for Fallout 4 that were on the Xbox were not available on
Sony you couldn't have them on PlayStation
because the copyright laws that Sony is subjected to are different to the ones
that Microsoft is subjected to. So in Sony you only could use assets that
we're in the game because the laws of copyright didn't allow the game to have
assets they couldn't certify that were in copyrighted.
And that was something different in Microsoft. So having Creation Club is something that they,
as a company, can make sure that all the assets that are used for the mods
are assets that have not a copyright on them and they can be used on whatever
platform you want to play on
This is this is another really important point
and the whole mods issue and modding is it's a very hot topic button
especially with our fans and the games that we've played with a lot of people
are not happy with the way that Bethesda has handled it.
That's the thing I try and stress over and over again is that this is the only way that
the modding experience will move forward in future games.
Unfortunately we have to have some kind of a base monetization for some of the
content in order for companies to say "oh, hey! Maybe we should add modding tools
and allow the community to create content for the game" Because right now
the vast majority of games do not allow that because they don't make money off
of it in the strict sense that they can take it to the shareholders or
to a Board of Directors and say "this makes us money"
Bethesda gets a lot of crap for all the lewd stuff that it's done with their games.
Okay. That's maybe 10-15 percent of the mods out there.
There's no work close to the mainstream of the mods
It's arrogant for the company to say we're gonna judge the
entire basis of a tool for the community based off of what? 5%? 10%? 1%?
Do with it I mean look at the advertising message that you encounter
on that we've encountered on YouTube. You know how many people were monetizing
violent and sexually permissive stuff against minors?
it's like 0.05% I think it was.
That's such a
small portion of the Internet in this particular regard and it's the same thing with mods.
There's a small percentage that that does something that
that you can't... As a big company as a corporation you can't be caught
necessarily agreeing with or allowing and because of that
Bethesda has to say "Well, we have to turn this into something that makes money
because if we can make money from it then and we can
guarantee that what we sell is decent
Unlike their first attempt with this, which was a nightmare.
The second attempt is still not preferable. Especially to the community but it's not at least
they're making some progress and people often didn't understand that that these
big companies they have to run this stuff past boards and shareholders
See CDPR. Has the same problem they are owned by shareholders
On top of their core, the company owning themselves
They are still owned by a lot of shareholders who those shareholders have a right to have
their opinions be made known, even if the shareholders have no idea about video games at all
People are going to do it anyway You try to shut it down?
We saw this with Blizzard and the whole Overwatch thing where people
used overwatch assets to make sexual stuff
At least they tried to shut it down then all that did was make it more popular
We did a whole video on that
Welcome to the Internet
That is so much better
to allow people to do this stuff and even give them tools to do it.
Then you can control it a little bit, just because you're making it easier for people
It was like when iTunes came out and made it super easy
to download music legitimately, even if...
Basically music pirating was a less appealing option
That answers the question of Darth Raver
The Creation Club was a great idea but the mods they
offer through there are just appalling and the prices on them are even worse
Why would you pay for something you can you can buy get from Nexus for free?
First because if you get it on Nexus the modder doesn't have
it's not paid for that mod.
Right. But even just if they have the Creation Club
and they can say to their shareholders this is gonna make some money off of
something that the gamers are doing anyway. Even though using the Nexus is...
Which it is not an option for console gamers
For instance, and not only that.
If you need to have a team of people controlling the mods
if there's some people there controlling the mods that are approved
into the system you need to pay them. I mean, the system per se need some money to work
Not everything you pay for the mod goes
clean to the company. You have some expenditures on that.
who knows if it's a profitable endeavor or not but...
Even is not profitable, I don't know
It is currently making money. That system... it's mostly coming from the console users.
The fact that they're finally getting these mods and they're
happy with getting those mods. There is still some major major issues.
The way they accept applications, the way they pay their
applications is a handful of issues and we could go on forever on there
Let's put a little sticky on this
I suspect strongly that there will be mods for Cyberpunk.
If those mods are just client-side, some client-side alterations
I suspect those will be in the game. Period. 100%.
I'm very confident that there will be at least some level of modding to this game early on
and I don't think CDPR will try and squash it
I think they'll keep cheaters out but I don't think that they will squash
general modding for general purposes.
That would insane and that will be stupid
That's the bad though let the boy console users and yes,
I'd rather play on console than on PC. Wii console users need another type of
mods in another way of doing mods for us to be able to have that
And Creation Club is something similar to how people dislike micropayments just because they need to pay
I mean, it's not the same that you're forced inside of
pay2win dynamic. Which I believe is horrible but paying for cosmetic
items is nothing wrong with that because if I don't want to I just don't get them
but if I want to, I have the possibility. And that's the same with the Creation Club
and all these kind of things. It is not something that you
need to complete the game. You don't need to play the game. But if you want you
have the possibility to spend money And it's better than going to Nexus to get
the mods because in there you know that the developer, the modder
It's a developer. It's receiving money for the efforts that this person is making.
True. I don't know. On the Nexus you can donate to the mod creators that you appreciate
Yes, but you shouldn't be able to do that.
In fact, every time that I entered into a mod on Nexus what I read
is that they cannot accept donations because they don't own...
They cannot be paid for modifying something that it's not theirs
Unless they've changed it recently
you can't be paid... You cannot pay for the mod
You can't be paid for making the mod. But you can donate money to the mod creator
To show appreciation for the work
They found the way to avoid the law
it's a loophole, but it's one that works
Every time I download a mod, I get a prompt to... Not every time,
but a few times. "Hey, would you like to donate to this mod creator?"
you're donating to the Creator so you're not buying the mod. The mod is a download
but "would you like to donate to this mod creator to show your appreciation?"
A donation is a donation. Yes, captain
This story just literally broke as we were talking about this issue.
We are on the precipice of the news I tell you, we are leading these
stories before.... Maybe this guy started listen to us, I don't know
Anyways, Nexus mods has planned a new donation system and storefront for early 2018
In which players and fans can donate to the mod creators and this
donation system translates into actual money in the hands of mod creators.
This was posted 19 minutes ago on Kotaku and the fact that we
started talking about this minutes ago is hilarious to me
I wonder how that would differ from how it currently works. Is it still donations based
it's interesting how they're doing it
this is I'm reading up on it now and I won't
I won't go into because I got a look a little bit more but they seem to be
coming up with a very ingenious way to work around, to work over to have a
workaround for getting around the legal loopholes
This is brilliant, this is amazing and I should probably say just for...
clarity sake, we are mod creators on Nexus so we do have a little bit of a
foot in this race, but this is not theway we make money
we do it because we have fun with the game and we enjoy the games that we mod
We also do game creation and stuff on
the side in and we've been involved this for a while
This is interesting and also very fascinating the news broke just now, really cool.
We are visionaries
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