in this episode I'm very excited to have the newspaper reporter who is able to
get an interview no other journalist was able to secure and that is OJ Simpson
hi everyone I'm ex-TV producer jennifer moore and with me right now is Tim
Graham of the Buffalo News and Tim recently got some some notoriety for an
interview he did with OJ Simpson and that was about what Tim that was the
first significant interview he's done in quite some time
yeah that was about 10 years I think that's because he was in prison for nine
and he had been out for six or seven months at the time of the interview and
then for the trial he wasn't doing any interviews then so maybe even 11 maybe
12 years just taking a guess so from just to be safe
worry I said it was this tender wow that's incredible so I want to walk
people back a little bit you've been working at the Buffalo News for for
several years what kind of background do you have in journalism well you know I'm
a self-taught journalist if anyways I went to baldwin-wallace College which is
on the west side of CLE don't even have a journalism program so I went there to
study sports management and my goal was to work for a team and the Cleveland
Browns at the time actually had their training facility right on the Baldwin
Wallace campus so my thinking was I can go to Baldwin Wallace study sports
management maybe get an internship at the Browns or something like that and it
would be a great place to get started in this the stay in sports for as long as I
could I didn't have the skills to cut it so as an athlete that is and started
working for the college paper and fell in love with it and that was during my
freshman year and I started taking jobs wherever I could covering high school
sports and my first assignment actually was for a paid gig at a real newspaper
was covering a coach pitch us baseball tournament six year old kids for 25
bucks and I think I probably averaged out to about a dollar 12 an hour or
something that day because it was on all day tournament deal and I just put in
way too much work but anyways that's how I got started and I
bounced around the country and was in Las Vegas for about five years before
coming to Buffalo the first time in 2000 and then just constantly moving up the
ladder bigger responsibilities a bigger paper bigger circulations always just
kind of taking the next step in in my career trying to further myself that way
and came to Buffalo in 2000 left in 2007 to cover the NFL for the first time for
the Palm Beach Post I covered the NHL prior to that for seven years this
Buffalo Sabres and that was at ESPN for three years and moved back to Buffalo
because ESPN didn't care where I lived so so I moved to Buffalo twice jennipher
once from Las Vegas and ones from forth you moved to Buffalo by choice let's
make late twice yeah it's it's the inverse of what you're supposed to do
right you're supposed to do move out of Buffalo into warmer climates but love
adherence where I want to raise my family and then back into Buffalo News
since 2011 Wow okay so back in the 90s when all of this was going down with OJ
being on trial and the double murders at the time like where were you and did you
ever think that you would have a connection to that story no way and even
you could have asked me this question two months ago and I would have said no
way it just didn't seem right there just didn't seem plausible to me but when the
Bronco chase I remember it vividly where I was is a lot of people do I was
sitting on my couch in the Boston area I was working for a brief period of time
with the Boston Herald in their sports department had a cup of coffee with them
before taking a different job as an assistant sports editor somewhere else
back in Ohio and I just remember watching it and the whole thing and I
remember where I was when the verdict came in I was by this time working in
Las Vegas and when the jury found him not guilty of the two murders
you know it was these things that are indelible and major major news
occurrences and no never in my life would I have thought about it and it
just goes back to a conversation I was having with the bills running back
LeSean McCoy about running in the snow it was a story about how he was coming
off this this great game against the Indianapolis Colts in overtime in which
a ton of snow fell in in Orchard Park and it was a picturesque game it was
like a career and Ives football game you know it was just gorgeous and so a lot
of people may remember it from seeing the highlights because I think it was on
mainstream news I get the a block of newscasts around the country of Mike how
much snow these teams are playing in and so LeSean McCoy has a penchant for
running well in snow games and some running backs can't do it and so I was
talking to him about it and it came up that one of the great running backs in
the snow considered to be you know by historians the best maybe is OJ Simpson
and so I was talking LaShawn who also played for the Buffalo Bills so I'm
talking to LeSean McCoy about it and he said well what did oj say about running
in the snow and ice laughed and I said yeah Oh chick doesn't do interviews and
he just did hand I don't think his naivete I don't know but he said well
why doesn't he why not why doesn't he do it do you see do you think he's too
young to kind of remember he knew well I don't know or maybe maybe not you know
these guys they're immersed in their world and athletes I think a lot of us
assume they're the people that we cover in any walk of life we assume that they
know what we know because we're you know I'm in this profession profession
because at one point in my life I was a big sports geek and I had all the cards
you know the trading cards and the encyclopedias and I was just going
through at the trivia all the magazine subscriptions to sport and Sports
Illustrated in Sporting News and so I absorbed all this stuff and he just
because he's good at football doesn't necessarily mean that he's a student of
football so or of life I mean maybe he just doesn't he blocked all this stuff
out or OJ didn't know of a certain age and we can talk
about my students at Canisius College what they did or did not know about OJ
Simpson when we talked about doing my interview but so LeSean McCoy was just
kind of like whoa well why doesn't he why not why doesn't
he do interviews and I said well you know the whole double murder thing and
he just got out of prison and and the people around us are kind of chuckling
and he says yeah so I was like cool so yeah it was like a bit of a challenge I
think of like so what kind of reporter are you if you can't get OJ Simpson to
which I'm thinking I'm not gonna get OJ Simpson but it at least gave me the
impetus to try and and then as I started to try and I was hitting a lot of
roadblocks phone numbers that were disconnected obviously he's been in
prison for nine years so email addresses that bounce back or emails that just
wouldn't get returned so I know they went through but nobody I don't know if
anybody was reading them attorneys who weren't returning my calls it got to the
point where it became a matter of principle that I was gonna keep going
until I got no for an answer and then even then maybe I can negotiate in some
way and I never got no I just kept getting ignored and that made me as a
journalist and I guess my natural competitiveness I kept well let's see
what we can get and then finally I found a guy who is close to OJ Simpson a
manager if you will who people don't know about and I was able to locate this
person make my pitch and he considered it then he said I'll take it though J
and see what OJ says and what it was originally gonna be Jennifer was it
wasn't going to be the interview that I sat down and did it was going to be
because LeSean McCoy was kind of starry-eyed about the idea of me
interviewing OJ Simpson and he would say later on that he wanted to be there so I
pitched it as LeSean McCoy and I'll sit down or you can okay and LeSean McCoy
can sit down and talk football and I'll just be a fly on the wall and see where
the conversation goes well it then it was maybe gonna be Thurman
Thomas also the bills hall-of-famer ah yeah yeah he was real popular back in
the night sure so the three great running backs and it would be
interesting to see if there's another team in the NFL that could match up the
top three running backs like that Oh Jay Simpson Thurman Thomas LeSean McCoy and
getting them all in a room together would be good football time regardless
of what I can certainly see why that pitch would have worked better with OJ
yes probably everything else he had received
he got very excited about the prospect Thurman Thomas immediately said he
wasn't interested in it LeSean McCoy was kind of I wasn't
getting a definitive answer from LeSean McCoy but what happened was the Fox
special that aired the if I did it confession the video the the interview
with Judith Regan that aired it started to get promoted on television as you
know coming up you know or in two weeks you know watch Fox for this you know
interview with OJ Simpson in which they're the snippets were leaking out
that maybe there was an accomplice and all these other stuff so the Buffalo
Bills stepped in at that point and said look LeSean McCoy he's not going to be
able to do this interview and so I then reached out to OJ and toadies people and
I said all right now let's tell McCoy's out but if you're willing to sit down I
would still like to come out and do this interview they were disappointed because
you know Jay Simpson would still like to be able to be considered a legend of
football and so it was blow to him personally which kind of distance
themselves from right right or just the fact that he was gonna be able to sit
down and talk football with a player who he really is a big fan of he loves
LeSean McCoy he was photographed in his jersey back when the bills were in the
playoffs and OJ Simpson was at this Bills backers bar and in Las Vegas to
watch the playoff game against Jacksonville and he was wearing his
LeSean McCoy Jersey so he was disappointed because he thought he was
gonna have a little summit for lack of a better like kind of like oh hey here's
some of the greatest people in football right three three great bills running
backs sitting down talking football and say oh gee
Simpson that probably presented some sort of normalcy or a call harkening
back to the glory days for him when he was just the football player so they
were upset that the interview wasn't going to come off his plan but surprised
didn't back out yeah might as well come out he's in the movement of an interview
so you might as well come out and sit down
ended up being a three-hour interview yeah so do you feel like if that Fox
special had not aired do you think LeSean McCoy we've been more on board
with it yeah well I don't even know for sure if LeSean McCoy is the one who
backed out I think the bills public relations staff may have just said look
this is an honest interest he's still a Buffalo Bills player if it were a
retired player I don't think they'd have any objection he still represents our
brand and he wears our uniform and this just didn't wasn't yeah that makes sense
for a PR perspective it is weird with the timing of the Fox special if that
had not come out maybe they would have been less you know less resistant to the
idea that's really as it turned out because LeSean McCoy gave me his
definitive no or I should say the bills said no this is we won't be able to make
this happen that is what triggered the interview to happen as in hey you might
as well come out and do the interview now and there was a belief that aoj
might change his mind so the longer we dilly-dally that maybe he won't want to
do the interview so the interview took place coincidentally the morning after
the Fox special my god just by because of when we got to know from the bills
regarding LeSean McCoy it was alright as well do it now and it just so happened
to be the next day and it did create a bit of a different
tone I think you know I was if I watched it my hotel room the night before and it
it shaped some of the questions that I answered but it really what it did was
it helped remind me of the audience and then and give me some insight as to you
know what the audience is gonna be thinking as they read this article
because I think had that Fox special not aired they would have not been as
sensitive as they were and they had every right to be sensitive but it was
good for me to be able to write it know that the audience is going to is
probably not just going to have the warm and fuzzies taking a stroll down memory
lane with OJ Simpson exactly now between the time you started digging into this
and the time the interview will happen how much time had elapsed my first
conversation with LeSean McCoy was in December I think when I first made hit
paydirt regarding finding somebody who was actually going to take this - who OJ
Simpson for consideration probably a month and a half maybe two months so
yeah it took a while and I didn't think it was gonna happen and even though we
were talking about the possibility of it happening I wasn't putting together my
line of questioning until I knew for sure that it had it was gonna happen so
I don't want to waste my time on it yeah exactly because sometimes people will
flake out or they'll change their mind and be like you know yeah I'm not doing
that so and there's a part of me - Jennifer that's like this interviews not
gonna happen it's ojiisan City and again and why would he sit down with me you
know but me being from the Buffalo paper he played for the Buffalo Bills that I
didn't have a lot of cards to play when it came to convincing him to sit down
with me of all people so that was one card that I could play
and it turned out to be the trump card because he that's that was the draw for
him was amazed well talked to the place that if anybody remembers me fondly if
it's going to be the people of Buffalo so I might as well take a shot with the
Buffalo News as opposed to TMZ or even CNN or Dateline or Barbara Walters or
whomever all the different Oprah all the different people he had turned down so
yeah I guess you know I'm proud that I was able to get the interview but in
also in many ways as people have asked me how nervous was I how anxious was I
was in many regards just another interview because once you get it this
neutrality that you have to conduct an interview with it was just and then I
kept you know I had my questions and which I drew up on the plane you know it
wasn't really into him the night before and thankfully I did it that way too
because I had the special in my mind as I was putting my
the things I had to be conscious of and but really it was the night before the
day before the night before and then I really put the interview together yeah
no I agree when I'm coming up with questions I normally don't do it far
most reporters don't do it far in advance they you know cuz again they
might something might happen and they might have a new who wants to go with
and I think I think that's it's so interesting to me you know between us as
journalists just to hear your process hear about your process for going
through all this and and for securing the interview a lot of journalists again
no other journalists has been you are the only one in at least 10 years to do
this you know that's that's quite an accomplishment and do you have any idea
in your mind what what you think made oj say yes to you versus again anybody else
the puffit that I'm from the Buffalo News or from the Buffalo market and if I
were from the st. Louis post-dispatch or the Houston Chronicle would know or at
least he doesn't listen or his manager I had to get the manager to listen first
cuz if the manager doesn't listen then oj doesn't even have a chance to to
decide whether or not he wants to do it so you know there were conditions which
was considered controversial from you know some people I got some pushback on
social media regarding conditions but to me they were two of them were no
brainers yeah BOJ's cam didn't want video which fine I work for a newspaper
so and that's one less thing for me to have to worry about as a print reporter
I didn't want to have to show up with my camera and set it up and you know be
positioning and all right are we in a shot here you know you want to do an
interview and be able to sit there and just conduct the interview and be in
that moment because if I'm constantly worrying about the audio the quality of
my audio or the video you know the positioning or blocking or doing what
all the different things I need to do for a sad or getting b-roll or whoever
knows what but anyway their their concern was they didn't want us to then
turn around and sell it it's just fine that's not something we do anyway the
other thing was no big promotion no and no extraordinary
promotion of the the video or of the interview and that's not something that
we would do anyway it's not like we would get it sponsored by anybody and
the other part of that you know with that condition is I don't want and this
is a big exclusive interview I don't want to go advertising that we have this
video the Buffalo News because then you do hear from or oj wouldn't get those
second round of phone calls from Oprah from Barbara Walters from 60 minutes
from whomever from Anderson Cooper and it's frequently someone everyone else
sees in there like oh he's talking sir and it has happened what after the
interview ran he got all those calls again journey didn't and with the thing
and I thought it was interesting they weren't upset that he spoke with me they
were excited that a he's talking now talking yeah and that's to that
typically is the mentality well if he's talking to one outlet we've got a shot
no so let's go after it you know well who's not in our best interest to
advertise this anyway so we needed to be on the down low the one that was most
controversial I think though the condition was that the subject should be
limited to football now I can agree to that condition but I knew that when I
showed up questions weren't going to be or the topics weren't gonna be home late
about football and there also a lot of things that you can talk about through
the prism of football such as and one thing a lot of people have wondered
about regarding his his brain then whether or not he's been damaged as you
see from CTE and football players especially from that era when safety
helmets work that great and he had a heavy heavy workload by any comparison
by any measure from all the carries that he had all the times the catches that
kick returns he had a heavy duty workload for his entire NFL career and
also his three years at USC so excuse me as two years at USC so this is a guy
who's taken a lot of punishment and we see what
happened with a lot of football players suicidal thoughts depression violent
mood swings now not everybody of course but some and there been some very
high-profile incidences Junior Seau for instance killing himself in making it a
point to kill himself in such a way that he didn't destroy his brain so that way
he could donate it to science so able to talk to OJ Simpson about brain damage is
a football topic and I think a worthwhile one and one that he explored
with me or at least gave his honesty for it he talked about two concussions that
he had been diagnosed with and maybe others as they used to say back in the
day dinged up you know you got dings or your Bell wrong they weren't really
concussions but they were what we know now to be referred to by doctors as sub
concussive blows that you add up on just almost as much as concussions to
diagnose concussions so you're able to talk about a lot of things and he
couldn't help himself he talked about prison so yeah where could I be faulted
for a condition you can you can debate that I'm happy with what I did I sleep
well at night my bosses were clued in the entire way of what we would and
would not do in terms of a condition o J Simpson's people did at one point
suggest that we even sign a document that we wouldn't ask or refer to him in
certain ways in the story we obviously refused to do that of course and they
want to try to control things as much action here and to protect their his
interests there's no such thing as an interview without conditions they don't
have conditions in some way and in sports and in politics often the biggest
condition you get is interviewing somebody while their attorney or their
PR person is standing right next to them yet the ability to jump in and say he's
not answering that or I'm sorry but we're not going there or in this
interviews over great conditions all over the place I think a lot of people
who are saying you could you should never agree to any conditions yes that's
that's just that's Pollyanna stuff yeah and in your defense many many
interviews are only done because there are conditions on it because again a lot
of people wouldn't even interviews if the general policy was you
know we won't have any restrictions on this they just you would see a lot less
stuff on TV you'd read about a lot less stuff that's just not how that's not how
this business works again you could criticize it but again
if you and if you had read those you hadn't agreed to those restrictions it
wouldn't have happened period that's right right well this is again this is
so fasting so when you guys did the interview what was it you and him was
there anyone else there there were four of us there and I didn't know really how
it was going to go there were two he lives in a double gated community so
even you get through the first gate you still have to have a passcode to get
through the second gate and it's armed security and everything so we had a
driver to get us into the development and the manager who set up the interview
and I didn't know if they were gonna sit there the entire time and try to control
it if anybody else was gonna be there I wasn't sure but they didn't they let us
go and we sat there for three hours we were interrupted only a couple of times
with a phone call you know here I think it was a couple of phone calls he was
gonna go golfing later in the day and needed to arrange or find out the timing
of that so it was three pretty much three interrupted hours sitting outside
on a back patio on this golf course where he lives in a house that's not his
he's staying there driving a car that's borrowed you know he's doesn't he lives
very well for a guy who doesn't have anything you know for and for um for you
that kind of evokes a lot of trust that they were willing to give you the
address where he lives right well I was driven I was to him I had to meet we met
somewhere I was picked up and then I was living there but yeah I mean I know what
road were on and I see that number on the house when I'm walking in but also
it should be known that so many people found out where Jason was staying and
the way it was explained to me is that it's somewhat regular occurrence
there will be helicopters flying over you know so people can get their shots
of the place where jail because the man the man where he stated
the man who owns the house where he's staying was a character witness for him
and was involved in the trial in Nevada when he was sentenced for you know it
was a bungled memorabilia heist in which he was over penalized by a judge who was
making sure that he got punished for Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown Simpson's
deaths so it was a highly publicized trial and this man was in the trial so
everybody knew his name and you could look up where this guy lived and that's
where Jay staying and so the helicopters would show up and people from the other
side of the golf course would get their long angle lenses and allow members of
the media to come and take their shots of voce with their still cameras so
there's been paparazzi and but yeah it's a you know I hate this i hate the word
zeitgeist but when it comes to there are very few people who are in our
consciousness like OJ Simpson is as I as a pop culture or a historical touchstone
we remember where we were and we were talking about it earlier in this in this
in this interview and how how he's affected or how ambiguous he was at one
time and still is and the Saturday before it was the Saturday before I did
the interview there was a Saturday Night Live which of course you get used to and
late night monologues but Saturday Night Live had a new OJ Joe
I mean it was it's been so long but they're still making oj references on
all over the place so it was somebody doing an impersonation of OJ Simpson
it was 25th anniversary of Jurassic Park was the premise of the SNL okay so they
use like the time frame er they're bringing out all of the people so it's a
chance for all the people on SNL to dust off all their impersonations and it's
all the people who were trying out for the roles on Jurassic Park but didn't
get the part you know Jason was a lot of them though Kenan Thompson does OJ
Simpson and he says Here I am Oh Jason
in 1993 oh boy life is gonna be great for me you know cuz it's before
everything is taking a turn and he's like man can you just imagine being OJ
Simpson in 1993 the world is beautiful and the whole thing so yeah people are
still making these jokes he's everywhere and it was it was interesting to see how
the guy lives and copes with being somebody who's everywhere now you would
mention that he doesn't watch things with him in it is that is that correct
yeah that's what he said yeah I asked him if he watched the the
Fox special from the night before and he said he hadn't that he hadn't watched
the 34:30 that ESPN did that won the Academy Award
for Best Documentary last year or the
forgetting the network who did the the People vs oj simpson on was in on FX i
think yes it was FX that's right he didn't watch any of that and I can
believe that because if you could now for you for me if we were the subject of
a documentary obviously we'd watch it we'd be curious but he has been in so
he's everywhere as I've said and how can you live your life how could you
function if you were so consumed with what people were saying about you if
you're oj simpson if he in his mind whether or not he believes that he
didn't do anything or whether he truly is innocent or whether he was guilty
whatever I think you can just i mean remove that even from the conversation
the fact that he has to still get through daily life and to know that he's
gonna constantly be stopped by people on the street whether they want a selfie or
whether they want to yell fu Adam or call him a murderer to actually go out
of your way to watch these types of things with just ruin your day people
would say well good we want Oh je t'aime you know that his day ruined on a daily
basis and he should be reminded of all the pain he's caused regardless of that
in his mind between his ears he still needs to function on a daily basis to
his best ability and I would think that if I were
if it got to that point that you start blocking it out I mean I'm just thinking
about I don't even look at the comment section underneath an article yeah
whether it's about OJ Simpson or the bills tight-end
I don't look at a lot of social media because I know it's gonna ruin my day so
now imagine being OJ Simpson where your life is a comment section yeah I would
say that it's probably pretty easy to say you know what I'm just gonna avoid
everything I can I'm gonna practice my golf game and I'm gonna go out and I'm
gonna play 18 holes today and I'm gonna come back to my house and whatever I
mean you can't watch TV without the risk of his name just popping up somewhere
were getting online I mean it's everywhere so do you think he uses
social media um I know he doesn't use Twitter because
I've been talking to I stayed in touch with his manager and there's a he may
want to he's been talking about maybe getting a Twitter so that's that would
be insistent Oh Oh Jay Simpson on Twitter no that would be he would
definitely get a lot of uh a lot of tweets at him he would have to probably
have somebody read them for hands look you know all the hate that he's sure to
get but no I don't I got the sense that he doesn't do social media you also have
to keep in mind he was in jail for nine years so we're back for 2000 and what
would that be 2009 Twitter is barely a thing MySpace
and Facebook were the were about it right with them so he had I did notice
he had an eye an Apple watch that he was trying to figure out he was on he was
having texting and he was doing a lot of voice texting and things like that it's
thinking all the technology that he has an ADD and all the stuff so and not in
his time in prison that's a pretty long time to you know not be up on what the
latest thing is right that's interesting did what was your impression of him as a
person interacting with him for three hours that's all again that's got some
surreal I say this knowing exactly how it's gonna sound as it comes out of my
mouth but this is the consensus he's a nice guy and he's disarming in how
charming he is you know he'll talk about anything
he laughs easily you can go anywhere anytime I asked him a question he didn't
get upset by it I thought when I was gonna ask him about CTE here's a guy who
you know he's been around the block a few times and he's gonna say all right
here this reporter is from Buffalo who I've never met before
is coming here asking me about whether or not I have brain damage it's pretty
easy for him to link that to the murders yeah so if I'm OJ and I'm playing chess
a couple of moves ahead as he because he's known as being so savvy and has
been since the 1970 1970s and being in movies and on TV or there's a
broadcaster an old thing that he would immediately say you know what I mean I
don't feel like talking about that I want to talk about whether or not I may
have brain issues but he did talk about then he was just fine whatever you want
to ask me let's talk about it I mean that was the that was the feeling you
got he never actually said that but um it was but you could also say if you if
you believe that he did it then the charm of somebody like that is how you
probably get away with it so he's he's a nice guy did you come away from this
experience I should he appeared to be a nice guy
he I he was a nice guy to me so I don't want to say any blank I don't want to
make it seem like I'm making some definitive statement but it was he was
welcoming he was accommodating he was gracious and that was of course a
three-hour window into a very complicated life coming out of this
experience do you feel like your personal view of him has changed at all
from before the interview and then after the energy well I guess it would be
impossible not to just because I had zero interaction with him and now I have
a lot I had a lot of interaction with them from an interviewing standpoint
three hours is not you know you think about in the context of a workday it's
really not that much you know that takes you from the time you
by your computer in the morning to lunch but as you know Jennifer when it comes
to interviewing 3 hours is a long time to sit and interview somebody because
you're getting into a lot of areas and you you're there's an intimacy to with
an interview and I don't want to be too melodramatic about it but there is when
you're sitting there across the table from somebody and it's just a
give-and-take of an interview if you explore a lot of areas that that person
generally just doesn't wish to talk about you know while he's sitting down
for lunch with his friends or his buddies or co-workers or whatever you're
talking about things that that person maybe forces that person be
introspective if you're doing your job as an interviewer anyway but so 3 hours
is a long time now so yeah I think it can't help but at least now I have a
basis of what I I can recall being in the same room as OJ Simpson but I will
say this a lot of people have asked me to do I think he did it
my opinion on that do change based on three hours with him I will not answer
the question though when people ask and people are gonna say why you want to
dodge it well there's a couple reasons but primarily it's because my role is an
interviewer whether I think he did it or didn't if I declare it let's say you
know if I declare ahead of time I don't think you did it there if I have a
conversation with him in which he asks me and I say you know Jay I don't think
he did it I think he got a raw deal then that colors our entire interview because
now he's he thinks he's talking with a buddy and if I were to say oh Jed you
think he did it now I'm an adversary and and the
interview takes on a totally different
totally different tints and so it's important for me and thankfully nobody
asked me and maybe you ask and you don't ask because you don't want to know the
answer but nobody had throughout any of this course of the talking about booking
this interview with his manager or throughout the course of the interview
or even after the interview of the discussions I've had with with OJ and
his people nobody's ever asked me so do you think he did it or what do you think
are you friend or foe I would say I don't think it's your role to say that
you know it's not but a lot of people want to know a journalist a lot of
people want to know like how can you sit down with a murderer you know that's
just their general take is how can you do this it's like it's not my job if I'm
gonna get an interview and I'm supposed to be the conduit to give you the
information of what Oh Jay thinks or how Oh Jay lives you don't want to know what
my feeling is on that that's not my you need you need it to be as neutral as
possible you need need to be as neutral as
possible so that way when you read what he has to say you can determine for
yourself I'm not determining for you I think I
greatly respect that that you're trying to be honest neutral Plainfield as
possible and I read your intact she read all of the articles you wrote
surrounding the interview and and my verdict is I thought they were fair they
again you did not seem III honestly if if I had to guess what you thought of
him I would not know you did not really make that apparent and that's what your
job is is to report what happened report what your interactions with were with
and we're like without editorializing it yeah I think that there was a sense or
at least that maybe I'm maybe I'm projecting or maybe I'm applying it to
myself or I'm thinking how I would react as a reader of these stories is that
people thought that I was being an apologist for OJ that I would be by even
doing the interview or that I must not have thought he did it because why else
would you be sitting down with the guy who was acute such grisly things but
it's it's foreseeable that I could think that he did it and I could do this
interview and it's also foreseeable that by doing this interview maybe I didn't
think he did it and I wouldn't rather the reader not
care what I think which is why I'll not say and you and I both know that no
journalist would turn down prom I don't know any journalist that would turn down
the opportunity to get an interview with this man like I yeah to me it was
commensurate with and he's dead now so it's not the perfect analogy but if he
were still alive if I were to come to any reporters
look I'm gonna give you three hours of Michael Jackson but you can only talk
music everybody would take that interview you're not allowed to talk
about child molestations or accusations or payoffs or plastic surgeries or is
for whatever you can't talk about any of that no we talk music and there'd be a
line around the globe of people who would say yeah I'll be that interview
yeah so for all the people criticizing you for doing it I would say as a
journalist that that's your job your job is to get interesting thought-provoking
stories in and I think you did that so I I appreciated your work and I was I
again I we you and I first connected on Twitter because I posted your article
and I said I thought this was a very fair interview and again nobody no
journalists would be like yeah I'm not gonna do it especially even even if you
don't want to do it your boss would probably be like yeah you yeah they want
the chance and I remember as a college kid I was interning with this reporter
in Pittsburgh and he had a good I remember we were talking in the car he's
like you know what your job is not just to be their friend or to have them like
you your job is to get the story so again that can be that can cross some
line sometimes or some people may feel a little conflicted about that but again
you're you're paid your profession is to to write stories and that was one of
your comebacks to somebody on Twitter was I they're like how could you do this
sure like I like to get paid to write stories so I mean I think that's a very
valid defense and you even said you even said during the interview with him he
had told you that he had been approached by everybody everybody wanted to talk to
him yeah and Oprah's name was mentioned a
bunch of times I don't really know the complete rundown but you know I at one
point because I knew that I was going to be asked about the relevance you know
there are a lot of people out there just don't care about OJ Simpson and don't
want to hear about it and that's fine I'm not offended if you you know decided
to crumple up the newspaper and throw it in your recycle bin without even opening
it up that day that's fine but it's there for the people who are curious and
you honoree you have that ability to to not read it in fact that is part of
the story too yeah that's part of why is is that you
can just be totally revolted by him and not want to know word one about what
he's up to but then I've lost my train of thought which I'm surprised that
episode I heard your radio show and you are very right so that reminds me
because it was the radio show the next day I was having my radio show and I
said I know I'm gonna get a call that somebody's gonna say why does anybody
care and so I googled the Buffalo News and OJ Simpson and I did a chart of all
of the sites ABC CBS NBC CNN every major outlet The Washington Post the New York
they've been at the New York Times but Newsday all of ESPN even the black
culture media outlets like vibe and essence and jet and you know it was like
the undefeated which is ESPN's site they everybody out there in the mainstream
media said we need to aggregate this so my content was being taken and saying oj
talked was generally the gist of it and none of it was how dare the Buffalo News
sit down with OJ Simpson it was all OJ Simpson whether you like him or not his
newsworthy and so the list I wish I of this I saw a lot of the story some of
them were his his thoughts on Colin Kaepernick his thoughts I was surprised
by that oh it was a lot like there were a lot of
random stories in Howard when I first heard about your interview I had seen
some story on Facebook it was like OJ Simpson's talking about
thinks Colin Kaepernick was wrong and at first I thought it was gonna be one of
those like TMZ paparazzi type videos where they catch Oh Jay at a gas station
talking and then I was looking at the story and up because I was thinking at
the time I was like why would someone just ask Oh Jay about Colin Kaepernick
like I was like you know trying to equate and then I saw it was like part
of like a longer form interview I was like oh this makes a lot more sense
I think a lot of people see those headlines and it's easy to get the wrong
impression or did not get the full context of what's happening right well
that's where I thought I was clever and it's a football question right it was a
chance and that wasn't really yes it's a Colin Kaepernick question and you may
think that's clickbait and in a way I'm sure it is and that's what it became
because it was aggregated out as clique beta if that and the Donald Trump
question but those questions Donald Trump trying to buy the Buffalo Bills
and he tried to buy them when Ralph Wilson who was the owner of the Buffalo
Bills died that was the owner for OJ you know we would talk about OJ Simpson
talked about raffles earned quite a bit in the for my story so it's a way of do
you care what OJ Simpson thinks yes or no but at least it's Jose Simpson
talking about social issues because he is a social what do you what do you want
to call it I keep using the word touchdown you know the the racist LAPD
and the way that the whole trial was positioned in the in the court of public
opinion and how he was found not guilty was because of social issues and black
culture and black versus white the other blacks of Southern California versus the
predominantly white LAPD and so yeah I was gonna ask him about police brutality
which is what Colin Kaepernick is protesting during the national anthem
when he kneels or did back when he plays and so that was a way for I was hoping
for OJ to maybe open up on that didn't necessarily work out that way but it
became the thing that a lot of people focused on that had the Donald Trump and
peppermint were the two things that the mainstream media latched on to the most
when I thought it would be the CTE stuff which was only touched on Alou ESPN the
sports sites picked up on that but if you really want to get a look inside OJ
Simpson or the trial the murders whether or not you because a lot of people say
there's no way OJ Simpson committed those crimes he was too nice of a guy
there are still people who believe that then you may say well but maybe he has
brain damage and people didn't really seem to latch onto that as much as they
did just the fact that Trump Trump pretends to play golf with Donald Trump
and he was at his wedding - Marla maples I'm Jim's actually oh that's good that's
got a that had to have been an interesting wedding to actually attend
now you you did say I heard you say that you heard back from OJ about what he
thought of the article and what what kind of I in one sense I didn't care
what he thought because once it's over it's over and I have to write what I
have to write and I included all the things that I thought might make him
upset Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown Simpson or mentioned multiple times in
my story I mentioned the murder trial I mentioned the white Bronco chase and the
humiliations and the trial in which he was convicted for the memorabilia I
still being in prison he talked about being in prison too so that opened the
door there so I thought you know he's gonna read this coz talking about it's
one thing you know how it is people say things and they think it's okay until
they see themselves on television saying and they're like it's like I should have
said that or reading it I think reading it puts it into just a different place
in your brain where you say home and I said that but I heard back right away
and he threw his manager he said you were fair you didn't ambush us you did
what you said you were gonna do or you handle this the way you said you were
gonna handle it when you approached us and and now people may say well what do
we care about whether or not Oh David was happy with the interview I as my
reputation as I go to somebody else and you know be like you know I interviewed
OJ Simpson and he didn't think I burned him because so maybe you shouldn't feel
too upset about sitting down with me because I have somebody who can be
trusted yeah you did you didn't you know you
didn't try to manipulate the situation and you were very honest about your
intentions I included all of the negative stuff I mean
the exception of any kind of gotcha moment where I said Jay Oh Jay did you
do it or didn't we do it did you not kill your wife or whatever badgering
question I could have asked that might have made some critic happy of that I
did the interview it's not as though Oh Jay Simpson was one question away from
confessing you know to her in the interview so the other part of this to
Jennifer as as you know is I want there to be a second interview and I want the
barriers to come down even more for the second interview maybe even a third
interview who knows what the barriers we have to start somewhere this is his
first interview and at least a decade you have to start somewhere there's a
building of trust that needs to happen between the interviewer the subject and
when it's all over with I didn't want AJ to have regretted sitting down to
talking with Tim Graham now the reporter I don't care but not with me so I handle
everybody with the same amount of care regardless of what they've been accused
of what they've been whatever they've been acquitted of whatever they've been
praised for I handle everybody with the same care and attention and I guess that
couldn't be any clearer than in this case that's interesting said do you
think there's a reason now why again I can see why
but OJ is does not seem to be interested in doing further interviews or going on
TV again so I don't know I don't know if I see that happening again maybe not
outside of you but like he's not interested in talking to Entertainment
Tonight or he's been approached because people
think he's in the mood to talk now my thinking would be yes I would love to
get the second interview but this is my defeatist I guess I'm not technically a
Buddhist because I did actually get go forth and actually procure the interview
but the same mindset that takes over when I say I'm not okay there's no way
I'm gonna get OJ now I'm thinking there's no way I'm gonna get the second
interview because I'm just thinking if he had a pleasant experience with me
that he's going to want to sit down with somebody who he's known over the years
you know somebody in television know so maybe it's al Michaels or Bob Costas or
whomever and he's gonna want to sit down and do something that's with somebody
you know but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't
like the opportunity to do it because I do think that well there's a trust there
obviously at least that's what he's what he's said to me or declared to me and so
if your trust me then let's go let's see what else we could talk about let's see
what else you're comfortable with but here the thing about it too and it just
from a practical standpoint he is the civil suit in which he was found guilty
also mentioned in the story and he was found guilty or liable I should say in
the civil suit for the death of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman he owes a
lot of money and so a lot of people would like to pay him for interviews but
he knows that if he takes money for an interview he just has to give it to
settle the civil suit so he there's a reluctance there I think he doesn't see
any benefits to doing an interview people think of him what they're gonna
think of him but that doesn't mean regular journalism whether it's Anderson
Cooper or whomever they don't pay for interviews either so if he wanted to do
something like that maybe he wants to sit down you know you go old-school days
in the 70s maybe sits down with Larry King I don't know something that's
considered Larry King doesn't that YouTube show yeah something comfortable
and but not an old pair loafers and I'll sit down with Larry King and talk for a
half hour about whatever I don't know but he hasn't done those and from from
what I'm told he's not interested in doing those but that he has talked to me
about doing a second interview perhaps in Buffalo it Wow so he would go to
Buffalo and you wouldn't talk to him there yeah just in the last week or so
he was finally cleared you can leave the state if you get the chance to talk with
him again what do you want that story to be like well I would like for it to be
not as much about football and about what's happened in his life and looking
back I don't know when he's learned I mean that's something that I would have
to sit down probably the lot of people I trust and say all right how do we how do
we attack this because I don't know that you know I have a lot of confidence in
my abilities but all throughout this process
even in the first interview I've always I always keep my editors in the loop you
sit down and I say I'm always looking for feedback friends of mine who I trust
friends of mine in the business who I say I was able to tell a couple of
people hey look I'm interviewing OJ and a couple of days or after I did the
interview in the four days I think it was in between the interview and before
I finally ran there were a couple people I was able to reach out to and say
alright here's the interview what stands out to you as the people like I was able
to bounce ideas off them so it's not as though it's a solo effort and so if I
were to get a second chance in an interview I think there's just there's a
lot of people I would want to I guess they just try to spit ball with they say
all right what's the right thing and also there's the thing what's the right
thing to do here I just because I'm doing this interview doesn't mean I want
to give everybody the finger and say hey look you should have got that you just
because you didn't get this interview doesn't mean you know it's a bad
interview and hey if you don't like it then you you get the interview yourself
and you asking your questions no I I still want to do as much of them I
wanted to make it as honest in this forthcoming of an interview as I
possibly can in your mind is the is this the interview is this the story of your
career
No you know it's probably the most known but two stories a handful story stand
out in terms of coverage the ownership when the bills were sold to when Ralph
Wilson died that was the biggest story I think in in western New York sports
history and one of the biggest stories in western New York history period
because the bills make we're always that the belief was going to be that they
were gonna leave for Los Angeles when Ralph Wilson died the team was gone and
people had been dreading for a long time Ralph Wilson's death and losing their
bills and to be able to cover that whole thing which involved home from John
Bongiovi was one of the interested bidders just crazy then to have the team
sold to local interests and that the team wasn't gonna move and those fans
weren't gonna lose their team that to me is the book one of the more rewarding
stories a story I did on Darryl Talley the Bills linebacker who played during
the Superbowl years and he was going through a very difficult stretch in life
and still is in many regards but he has he believes he has CTE issues and
depression and he had suicidal thoughts and lost his business and his his
daughter's college funds were were blown trying to salvage his business because
he didn't want to have to layoff anybody and won't close down his house and so
anyway that story created a big outpouring in which Bills fans raised I
was almost two hundred thousand dollars to help him he's borrowing money from
his former teammates to rent so that was that was a story that actually changed
the life and one of my prized possessions is a Jersey that he signed
that says Sam your words changed my life it'll tell those it doesn't get much
deeper than that in terms of your role as a journalist
out so the OJ Simpson interview didn't change anybody's life so it was it was
just stayed probably the thing that you know in fact the girl tally story I
think has over the course of times got more
clicks story but so it's not just about the web traffic that's gonna determine
ya in terms of what I rank is my most meaningful was also like what story most
are you most proud of or you most you know know the get pretty cool yeah that
was a like I read that was like how did he do that like the first thing I was
thinking was not like oh he shouldn't it was like how the heck did you get oh
yeah I'll be telling that story for a while that's the story I the person's
name still was because he didn't want me he doesn't want me to say who he is why
not he doesn't want to feel all the requests and I don't want people to know
who is either because hey I found him
and that happens a lot in journalism everybody kind of piggybacks on the work
of somebody else like somebody else would get a really awesome interview or
a good story and then the competition will try to do the same story so I think
I think you keeping your sources kind of to yourself as probably is probably
probably for the best um okay so you said you t also teach at
Canisius College and you told your students what you've been doing and how
did they view you had a funny story about the way they reacted yeah the
interview took place on a Monday and I teach my class on Monday nights and so
it happened as I mentioned it happened at the last second so I think it was
Friday or Saturday I sent out a mass email to the class list that said love
no class on Monday I'm being sent out of state on assignment I didn't tell them
anything about it and then the story ran online on Friday
and in the paper on Sunday so then it's now the following Monday and I stood up
in front of the class and I said so show of hands how many people know why I
didn't why we didn't have class last week and only about for the 15 raise
their hands so a couple things that they don't follow their instructors Twitter
feed they don't read the paper and they don't it was on the front page of the
Buffalo News on Sunday or check out the Buffalo news.com
keesha's college Roosevelt now is located in Buffalo so these are aspiring
journalism students who didn't have any idea what I was up to and so I had them
read the story so that way we could talk about this is a journalism moment you
know about you know the teaching moment about getting an interview and
gatekeepers and how you being persistent and and I wanted to know what they
thought is discerning you know journalism consumers about the things
like the conditions and you know we're going to get into how the interview came
to be and setting up the structure of the interview and all that stuff I
thought they had questions and I was surprised now we're dealing with current
college students who are anywhere from 18 to 22 years old who didn't who knew
that OJ Simpson was a football player but had no idea how good he was then a
couple people died but they weren't really sure that who they were you know
maybe it was his mother or girlfriend it was just it was funny that what they
didn't know yeah that they don't they obviously don't have as much detail as
we do just because we live through it right interesting so they just had no
wow they had no clue Wow wait so for journalism students obviously since you
teach it what kind of advice do you have to aspiring journalists to do to
experience success and do it in to do good journalism well the one thing that
I always tell my students is if I can do it anybody can do it because they just
by merely taking a journalism class are ahead of where I was I took zero
journalism classes I had two writing classes in college but I did it the hard
way also I was a did a lot of grunt labor it really wasn't until I was in
the business for seven eight years now five or six years for sure when I got to
Las Vegas things really took off but Las Vegas wasn't the market that it is now
it has two major league sports teams now but at the time it which is UNLV in
boxing pretty much and maybe a golf scene that a golf scene but it was a
great place for a young sports journalist to be able to go in and learn
and to do all the different things like right
Holland's and I covered a lot of high school sports even there so I guess the
thing that really helped me out the most was I moved a lot so be ambitious and be
willing to move because if you think that you're gonna get a job at your
hometown newspaper in your hometown ABC affiliate they're not gonna the chances
of that are slim but when you open up the country and say that you can get a
job at any of you know from coast to coast and tell all the different
versions of television stations out there and newspapers and websites then
you'd have the ability to get that experience that you need so that way
your hometown paper will notice you when you send in your resume and clips or
your highlight or whatever it be so be ambitious be willing to move and there I
know some people who are very talented journalists who've refused to move and
are now in their 30s and 40s and have been freelance journalists or
independent contractors their their entire careers and they've never had
given themselves the opportunity to get a full-time job by by actually going out
and experiencing life that's some solid advice here now you said the OJ started
pretty well online how many how many people do you think read it I don't know
I wish I wouldn't know you asked me that I want to say anything probably did
pretty well online I'm I'm gonna get it you know I think the first day it got a
hundred and twenty thousand clicks for twenty thousand News I think by the
weekend it was around one hundred and sixty something like that the Darryl
Talley story I think is somewhere around a hundred and eighty so I don't know if
the og you know do stories probably maybe has overtaken it I don't know well
this has been so fascinating again I really wanted to talk to you to just see
your brain and to get the process behind all this because I was so I was so
interested in knowing and knowing more about you and about you know how you got
this interview no one else was able to get so I really appreciated
no this has been awesome are you journalists oh you are talking like so
mr. Graham what do you think the bills are gonna do
can we talk about journalism in order yeah and and I'm not even gonna pretend
to be asked my way through sports stuff because clearly this is not my
wheelhouse and I do want to end on a bit of a lighter note I want to ask you a
few Buffalo related questions if you're kula that um you should be pretty I'm
gonna guess you'll um alright Buffalo favorite places to eat well I have to
say that Anchor Bar is overrated because I know a lot of people may be watching
this no oh anchor bar is way overrated it has been
considered the birthplace of the wing but my favorite is from an established
joint is Duff's okay guy but also my neighborhood bar which is one of the
more underrated wing places in western New York
elmo's and gets ville so that's from the wing standpoint there's a place downtown
it's relatively new it's only a couple of years old called seer su AR and it is
in the Embassy Suites building or the Avon building downtown and yeah it's
it's a great steak house partially owned by former Bills players Fred Jackson
Bryan Mormon and Terrance McGee but it is maybe the best fine dining experience
I've had in in Buffalo so highly recommend those two places awesome are
you oh I guess I gotta go like Ted's right who's got the best pizza in
Buffalo you think Picasso such handsome oh my gosh I used to go like I used to
live near there and we would go there all the time that they do have the best
pizza alright so I want to weigh in on the Anchor Bar thing okay so no
conversations on oh no Tim we've got it I think the sauce that the Anchor Bar is
great the way themselves could could use some improvement but the sauce I think
is probably one of the better sauces and you can buy that sauce that sauces spray
so but yeah the wings themselves I thought they were a little on the small
side when I went there but I did I did enjoy
I enjoyed the establishment the best wings I ever had though Jim Kelly had a
like a very short-lived sports bar I think when I was in like middle school
those were the best wings I've ever had in my life
they were super huge I'm sure the chickens probably had some weird
hormones going on the wings were seriously like this big and they were
they were amazing those are the best wings hands-down I've ever had my entire
life was at the Jim Kelly sports bar that is the first positive thing really
I love the wings I'm a big chicken wing Gail but yeah I'm a big Ted's fan
Anderson's custard oh right oh there is a lot about the food that I really do
miss about buffalos I just wanted to get your take on he has a beef on weck why
shouldn't that it seems to be something that every should be everywhere in the
country it's just a buffalo thing but the idea of eating a roast beef sandwich
on a pretzel roll essentially should that ancient people why isn't that a
thing you know I I don't know in and also why do people outside Buffalo have
ranged dressing with wings that's another thing I'm don't I don't quite
understand I think I think it's wrong he's just flat-out wrong but I'm a huge
chicken wing fan I am outside a buffalo I I don't mind Hooters I'm gonna be
honest I think I know I I like hooters I like the sauce there and I think they
deep-fry the wings in a manner that I I enjoy them alright now I've said this on
my radio show before so this isn't a big secret
I've reluctant and bringing this up it's the best maybe my favorite wings of all
time when I lived in Florida from a local Walmart they made key wing and it
was sensational and so I guess if you can have you know you can have your your
what's the word I'm looking for hey you know what Walmart does have good
stuff so I'm not I'm not too fancy I'm definitely not too fancy for a while or
believe me I just mentioned what was it you
going through your pizza oh you're talking about
Picasso's pizza yeah yeah they do have the best pizza III think they have one
of the better pizza places and and we would always just get paid some wings
you know at Pete's and wings is the thing so have some celery blue cheese oh
I do admit I do miss that and my husband works in the restaurant industry and he
thinks chicken wings are overpriced so we don't usually we don't normally
buy them anymore but um he and he doesn't even like he doesn't like going
to wing places so I you know I I don't mind going to Hooters I think Hooters is
fine yes you can de pute errs is an okay place for you to have wings that I'm not
so ashamed yeah I'm not I have no shame about I think I even made a video about
it on one of my channels I'm a woman who likes me hooters clearly I'm not going
for the scenery but you know I think the food is bait they also have a I think
every year they have a moms eat free special so I know I keep seeing that
promotion come around every year I know moms eat free you know if there
is one in Buffalo anymore well in the other places I think let that left
Buffalo that I really liked was called swish la it was a week they still have
and that was one of the we used to go there quite a bit there we used to be
one on transit I'm trying to run but the cross street was but I didn't even when
I was a kid I didn't even realize it was a chain I just you know I didn't know
anything about that so I just thought it was like the one we had I thought it was
like a local joint it was not but they would sell like the swish la sauce you
can't roll everyone's dressed you know like they're in the Swiss Alps or
something and we used to go and get like you know
like a hat you could get like a half chicken or a quarter I'm really into
food if you can't tell I like eating um so but yeah the good times are you've
missed I do miss all those things so have a
beef on weck and some wings for me Tim cuz I'm fine I know you uh
now I'm getting hungry why again I really appreciate you doing this
and uh I also want to give you the chance Tim this is a bit off the cuff
but uh if you I want to give you the chance to ask people watching any
question you want if you have a question maybe a burning question you've been
wanting to ask the internet or pretty much anything if you have anything
rolling around in there I want to give you the chance to ask the question of
the day here oh I'm drawing a blank I'm usually a little more clever than
this all right don't worry I'm joking no worries little hopes watching let us
know what you let us know what you think of this interview if you liked it give
us a like if you don't like give us a dislike whatever you want to do leave us
a comment let us know what you think i'm jennifer moore EX-TV producer in Tim
Graham it has been an absolute pleasure talking to a buffalo man about
interviewing OJ Simpson Thank You Jennifer
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