I want to welcome you all here to the very first not only
of this year, but the first ever lecture in the Dumanian Lecture
Series, which focuses on the history and culture of Armenia.
We're very, very excited to be able to inaugurate this series.
And we want to particularly, on behalf of Near Eastern
Languages and Civilizations and on behalf
of the University of Chicago, to thank the Dumanian family
for their generosity.
Over many years, they have supported
a visiting professorship in the field of Armenian studies.
And this year they have very kindly
agreed to expand their support so that we can not only
have the visiting professorship, but also a series of lectures
related to Armenian life, history, and culture.
And so that's a great thing.
And it's a great thing to see all of you
here tonight, especially since we're
in the first week of the term.
And usually people, their hair's on fire,
and they're at sixes and sevens, and they
can't make it to an event.
So I'm thrilled to see everyone here.
Perhaps I should have said my own name.
My name's Holly Shissler.
And without further ado, I will ask Professor Haroutunian
to introduce this evening speaker.
Thank you so much.
[APPLAUSE]
Thank you, Holly.
Hi, everyone.
It's nice to see a nice group of people here
who are interested to hear everything about Armenian art.
So we are very much delighted and very
much lucky to have today Christina Maranci, who
is the most and the only one actually
in the field of Armenian art history at this moment.
And she works at Tufts University.
I learned that she's even the chair there of art and art
history.
So she is the Arthur Dadian and Ara Oztemel
Chair of Armenian Art and Architectural
History at Tufts University.
She has had visiting positions.
One of it was here at the University of Chicago,
I believe, in 2000.
She was also a visiting professor at Ann Arbor
University of Michigan.
She's the author of three books and over 60 articles
and essays on medieval Armenian art and architecture,
including most recently, The Art of Armenia,
an Introduction with Oxford University Press.
So that came out in the fall of last year.
So go to Amazon, get the book.
Her most recently published monograph
on the 7th-century architecture of Armenia
won the Sona Aronian Prize for Best Armenian Studies
Monograph from the National Association of Armenian Studies
and Research and also the Karen Gould Prize for Art History
from the Medieval Academy of America.
Maranci has engaged with the cultural heritage of Armenians
for over a decade, working on historically
Armenian churches and monasteries
in what is now Eastern Turkey.
Her campaigns for the Cathedral of Mren
near Ani in present-day Eastern Turkey
resulted in its inclusion on the World Monuments Watch
List for 2015, 2017.
So without further ado, let's welcome our guest speaker
today, Christina Maranci.
[APPLAUSE]
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Can you all hear me?
Yeah.
Thank you, Hripsime.
Thank you, Holly.
Thank you to Near Eastern Languages and, is
it Cultures or Civilizations?
It's civilizations.
Civilizations.
Thank you so much.
[INAUDIBLE]
And a very big thank you to the Dumanians
for sponsoring this lecture series.
Hripsime is correct.
I was here.
I taught here for a quarter back in either 2000 or 2001
with the Dumanian Visiting Professor Series.
And I was amazed at the quality of the students.
You guys were so smart.
And it was really important for me
because I was just finishing my doctorate.
And to have the opportunity to teach such smart students
but at such a prestigious institution
meant so much for me as my career went along.
It was really important to have that opportunity.
So I'm so thankful to the Dumanians
and to the University of Chicago four for having me.
That was just really a career-building moment for me.
So thank you.
Thank you.
What else?
So who am I?
Yes, I teach Armenian Art at Tufts University.
And I wrote this book, which I'm going to talk about today.
So I'm going to talk a little bit about it, why I wrote it,
and what it's all about.
It's called, as you can see, The Art of Armenia.
And yeah, so I've been teaching Armenian art,
I would say, at the University of Chicago,
so going back 18 years.
I've been teaching it for a long time.
And one of the things that I found
was that it was really hard to give students
readings on Armenian art.
Like, what is there to give them?
And so that was one of the reasons that I wrote it.
I wrote the book also just because
after teaching Armenian art for how many years,
I thought it's time that I have my own voice.
I teach this subject in my own way.
I didn't have a mentor in grad school
who was an Armenian art specialist.
He was a Byzantinist.
And I was very glad to learn from him.
But I didn't learn from someone who
presented the material in a particular way
that I inherited.
So I kind of was making it up as I went along.
But it's been 20 years.
And you have your own--
you start to sculpt your field in a particular way.
So I wanted a book, an accompanying textbook.
And looking around, there really wasn't anything
that I could use.
So there are-- and forgive me if you know this already,
but there are two surveys of Armenian art that were produced
and both of them in the '80s.
They were both written originally in French
and then translated.
And they are useful, each in their own way.
But particularly the bigger one, that I did
try one semester to assign readings from,
and it did not go well.
That one assumed a level of familiarity
with the material that was way beyond what
a typical American undergraduate would know.
So I'm going to give you an example.
Let's see where you are.
Oh, yeah.
So on the 6th-century basilica of Yererouk
in the Republic of Armenia, a beautiful, big basilica,
an example of early Christian architecture in Armenia,
this is what you read in that book.
And if you're an undergraduate, and you
read "the general aspect of Yererouk
evokes the large Syrian basilicas of sixth century,"
in parentheses, Turmanin [INAUDIBLE]."."
That's not going to mean much to you as a sophomore in college.
So I really saw a need to just sort of explain this material
in a basic way, in a basic, accessible way,
but at the same time to do something else,
to incorporate all the wonderful scholarship that
has happened since the '80s not just in the field
of Armenian art and archeology, but also just generally
in the discipline of art history.
Art history's changed a lot since the '80s.
And so how could I write something
that would both be accessible to students
and also capture these new discoveries and new approaches,
new methods, new monuments that we've found or excavated?
So that was what I had in mind.
The other thing I wanted to do is
I thought that for the Armenian community, which
I'm a part of in Boston--
those are my people.
I thought there was a real need to explain Armenian art
within the discipline, the context
of the discipline of art history,
because we all love Armenian art.
This goes without saying.
My parents had their Armenian art books at home.
And I looked at them.
But why?
Who paid for this art?
What does it mean in its own context?
Why does it look too different from that?
All the questions that we ask as art historians,
I didn't know about.
And I think that there was a way that I
could give to the Armenian heritage readers, something
about where Armenian art fits into the discipline of art
history, into the discipline of medieval history
that would be useful.
So that was the plan.
And all of this, of course, as you
know, in a world in which there's really
a vacuum in terms of teaching Armenian art in the States,
for sure, but it was a fun process.
And for those of you who are engaged in writing projects,
you know it can sometimes be lonely.
But this one, It took me about three or four years on and off.
I was not on leave while I did it.
I worked my way through.
But I learned a lot.
You might think, oh, it's just an introduction.
How much can you Learn but it's amazing
how much you can learn as a specialist in your own field.
And it made me more convinced than ever,
and I hope to convince you tonight,
that this field has so much to offer.
And it's criminal that American students don't get
more exposure to this material.
It really is outrageous to me.
And the more I learn, and maybe I'm a fanatic,
but the more I learn, the more I think, yeah.
You're shaking your heads.
So that's good.
Moving on-- you know what?
Can we turn the lights down a little bit.
[INAUDIBLE]
I'm just going to go to Starbucks.
I'll be back in a little bit.
No, I'm just kidding.
That's pretty good.
[INAUDIBLE]
See you later.
No.
That's much better.
Yeah.
There you go.
There you go.
[INAUDIBLE]
Don't fall asleep.
[INAUDIBLE]
[INAUDIBLE]
You'll get used to the dark.
That's better.
So I wrote a very timid email to the person
at Oxford University Press.
And I'm telling you that 20 years ago, if I'd
send such an email, I would have gotten no response
because things are changing in Armenian art,
in the field of Armenian studies, too.
I don't know.
Maybe.
But she wrote back, and she was thinking,
yes, this might be a good thing to do.
Let's pursue it.
Write a prospectus, and we'll talk about it.
So what I envisioned was a book that
dealt with Armenian art broadly speaking, sort of material
culture from the beginning of time
to the 17th, early 18th centuries, which is pretty
much within my comfort zone.
I'm a medievalist.
And so the modern, for me, I felt like the modern world,
different, other stuff going on, I
would leave that to maybe a second volume for someone else
to write.
And yeah, so I got the reviews back.
That's always fun to find out what people really
think of you.
And one of the reviews said, she's a medievalist.
She really shouldn't be talking about ancient.
No, she can't talk about that.
And, of course, that made me angry.
Whenever you hear things like that,
like, why are you telling me what I can do?
And I felt, too, that ancient, the pre-Christian material
was really important to include.
I am-- it's true.
I'm not a specialist in this material.
I'm a specialist in Christian and beyond.
But to start with the fourth century, to me,
felt really artificial.
Because people in historical Armenia, the lands of Armenia,
had all around them the pre-Christian landscape.
And that whole thinking about the memory of the past
is something that was studied so well
by Adam Smith and [? Lori Khatchadourian, ?]
who were here at Chicago maybe before your time.
But anyway, it's wonderful the work
that's been done by archaeologists
in working in the Republic on the pre-Christian past.
And it would, to me, seem really wrong to ignore all that,
particularly when you look at it.
This is Van Fortress, so in the Van region, in the sort
of southern part of what's now Turkey,
about southeastern part of what is now Turkey,
part of the Urartian world.
This was certainly not--
it hadn't vanished during the fourth century, when Armenians
converted to Christianity.
It was there still.
So why are we ignoring this early material culture?
Plus, some of the most exciting discoveries have been made in,
let's say, Bronze Age Armenia.
Remember the shoe that was discovered and the wine?
And so why ignore all that?
It just didn't seem right to me.
So I indeed-- my first chapter is on--
I call it-- ancient Armenia.
And it's a kind of convenient term
for me to use for everything from paleolithic, which
can get really tricky to date, to into the period
on the eve of the conversion to Armenia of Christianity.
That's a long period.
And it's so complicated, and it was the hardest chapter
I wrote, for sure, because it was really something that
wasn't even art history, as much as anthropology and archeology.
So what I tried to do in this chapter
was I looked everywhere to find a good comprehensive study
in English of ancient Armenia, to no avail.
So I realized there is a real need for something like this.
And so what I looked at was things like studies
of Urartian fortresses.
The chapter runs the gamut, talking
about the different periods.
But for example, this plan of a Urartian site
in what is the Republic, [ARMENIAN],,
has been studied really interestingly,
again, by Adam Smith, who's worked on spatial
analysis to show that essentially Urartians were
really into storage.
They loved storage.
They really did.
It would kind of fit right in with the--
anyway.
And also they liked to control movement.
So if you kind of look through this plan and you look at the--
you don't get to make too many choices when
you're moving through this plan, which
is really interesting, too.
So to what extent this tells us something about the way
they were controlling and even surveilling the people,
the subjects within their fortress is very interesting.
So I'm trying to give readers both a general sense of what
is Urartu when is it, but also what the newer scholarship is
saying about it.
That was important.
I also wanted to insert always a little bit
of my own sense of these objects, pre-Christian objects,
as an art historian.
This is a beautiful example of a bronze work from Urartu
and speaks very much to connections
with the Assyrian world and Assyrian visual traditions.
And maybe just looking at this, you think of the lamassu
that we know of from the Assyrian palace context.
And so it seemed to me a very interesting moment to ask,
thinking about the way art history
is moving now, to ask well, OK, yeah, we
can see connections here with the Assyrian world, but why?
What does it mean?
How would it have been received in a local context?
And they're questions beyond just,
oh, all they did was copy Assyrian traditions.
We've moved beyond that, thankfully, in art history.
So then it sort of allows us to meditate on, well,
what were the attractions about this Assyrian tradition
that drew patrons, makers to integrate
those forms into Urartian and visual culture?
I would say the most interesting thing for me
in the pre-Christian chapter was what it used to be considered,
again, kind of like great, but now we're thinking differently
about the ancient world, and that
is that we find a culture, a material, a corpus of sites
and objects and images that don't
fit into tidy categories of Mediterranean
or the ancient Near East.
It doesn't work.
And you can really see that very well if you look at these two
[ARMENIAN] or [ARMENIAN],, [ARMENIAN]..
On the left one, that is evocative of Persian,
particularly think of Persepolis, [INAUDIBLE],,
A relief sculpture.
And on the right, you can see a [ARMENIAN]
with its repousse designs, which is connected
to the Hellenistic world.
Look the barefoot figure with the drapery and so forth.
And we can see that sort of connection
to the ancient Mediterranean also when
we look at this wonderful statuette that
was excavated from [ARMENIAN],, which
speaks very clearly about an interest,
a desire to see Hellenistic forms.
This is a beautiful example of kind of Hellenistic sculpture,
wet drapery, contrapposto.
It has it all.
But it doesn't form part of study
for classical art historians.
If you look in a book on Hellenistic art,
you're not going to find this.
And one could say the same about some
of the objects that connect with Achaemenid art.
I'm being a little provocative here.
But what I'm trying to say is ancient art of Armenia
is sort of both looking towards the Mediterranean
and looking at the ancient Near East
in ways that defy easy categories of here's
your Near Eastern art, here's your classical art,
and let's move on.
Armenia's both and neither, in a way.
And I thought that was very exciting and something
instructive for students to see.
It's not a drawback.
In fact, I think it's something that
shows how we need to rethink art history to accommodate
this tradition.
That maybe art history as it stands
now doesn't work for a subject like Armenia.
Just a famous example, when you go to Armenia,
you go to Garni, the ionic structure of Garni,
which again speaks to that connection
with the Mediterranean.
I was surprised, as a non-ancient specialist,
how little scholarship there was on these, what I thought
were very famous objects when you start looking.
I didn't find a whole lot, which was kind of disappointing.
I thought there should be more.
So moving on.
Where are we?
Oh, yeah.
So now we get into my comfort zone a little bit.
We move into the Christian period.
And this drew very much from my own previous book
on the seventh century, so that was fun.
And in fact, this was my sample chapter,
which seemed to go over well with OUP.
So that was nice.
But what you're looking at here is a really fine example
of the building tradition of 7th century Armenian churches.
And what's very typical of this moment in Armenia is that--
and when I speak of Armenia, I'm talking here
about historical Armenian, the Republic,
what's now Eastern Turkey, Southern Georgia, Azerbaijan,
Northern Iran, this large swath, in its largest swath.
But the churches built in the 7th century
are astonishingly abundant, diverse,
refined, and tell us a lot about the people who made them
because many of them are inscribed.
And they also have sculpture, and they're also painted.
So there is a corpus, hundreds of churches,
that belong to the seventh century,
a moment where in Byzantium, broad brush for a moment here,
you don't have this kind of level of productivity
or this level of surviving monument.
And look at them.
I think you can see yourself.
These are carefully designed buildings,
and they seem to emerge with fairly few preparatory steps.
So in my previous book, lot there's
been a lot of wonderful work cataloging
the various types of plans and the construction technique
and this, sort of, big study done, catalogs,
I would say, of the architecture,
but less work that kind of hones in on specific monuments
in huge, painstaking, painful detail,
which is what I did in my previous book
because I wanted to know who built these, why.
And I found it really--
for me, it became, then, a more interesting project
because I like architecture.
I like the formal qualities of architecture.
But I also like the social questions
and the economic questions and the political questions.
And we know that the 7th century was
a moment, sort of an unparalleled moment in history
where you have in the area of historical Armenia,
you have the Byzantines, and you have
the Sasanians and the end of the Sasanian world,
and then you have the Islamic conquests, all of this
happening in the 630s, 640s, and in the area where--
Armenia.
So it's a moment of tremendous upheaval.
And it's also one of tremendous productivity in terms
of architectural culture.
And probably my favorite monument
is this one from the 7th century.
Obviously one of the problems with writing this book
is you have to choose.
So I was given, oh, I don't know--
I don't know how many words I was given,
not a lot, maybe 80,000.
So it's really more about what you cut
rather than what you include.
But I had to include Zvartnots, which is essentially
a rotunda from the seventh century.
It's a round church.
But speak so much to this moment when Armenia
was in the midst of not just conflict,
but in the midst of these political powers
and their confrontations.
And the churches are part of that.
And if you dive deep into the history of the churches,
and you look at who built them, if you
look at their inscriptions, if you look at their sculpture,
if you look at their painting, if you look at their designs,
you can see they were not this kind of insular or backwater,
but rather the monuments and their programs
and their patrons were connected.
They were connected to Byzantium.
They were connected to the Islamic world,
which was rising.
They were connected to the Sasanian world.
They were part of this larger moment
that was so important at the time, still is.
And so that's what I tried to do.
I tried to bring in some of my earlier book
and put it in this chapter.
I also wanted very much to talk about the visual culture,
manuscript painting and sculpture.
Here I should say, too, as with ancient art,
there has been tremendously good work done
on Armenian manuscripts in the Republic
and also here for the past several decades.
And so I was able to draw on all that.
This on the left is a famous painting,
four of the earliest Armenian manuscript paintings
we have from the 7th century.
It's called the Echmiadzin Gospels.
And on the right is a sculpted stone stele.
And if you go to The Met--
have any of you been to the Armenia show at The Met?
OK!
A few people.
So you saw you saw a stele like this one.
These are large quadrangular obelisk-like structures
that were set up outside, carved with relief,
probably meant for veneration, commemorative objects.
And they're fascinating because they
show not just sacred imagery--
you can see-- this is maybe hard to see.
It's also been somewhat battered.
But there's a Virgin and child and two angels.
But you also see a figure we think is the first Christian
King of Armenia, Tiridates, because if you look carefully,
you see he has ears, and he has a snout.
And it speaks to his transformation
after he converted to Christianity back
into human form.
He was very naughty before that and was turned into a boar
for being bad.
This is very simplistic.
But then he converted-- and it's also--
it's a bridge, and it's also cleaned up.
But when he converted, he was given human form again.
Here you see him kind of in between.
I just want to show you this beautiful, beautiful--
so I love this manuscript.
I think these faces are adorable.
That's not a professional thing to say, but I love their faces.
I love Gabriel.
You see Gabriel peeking out from behind the throne on the right
and the Christ child.
But this is just a wonderful manuscript
that speaks to this 7th-century moment.
Mineral pigments are being used here,
which have retained their intensity, as you can see.
A wonderful image over here of a magus, magi.
Magi, that's plural, right?
Yeah, anyway.
And you can see him.
If you compare this to contemporary Sasanian seals
or coins, you can see the same profile,
same almond-shaped eyes, same drop-pearl earrings,
same fluttering scarf.
It's amazing.
So really here you have in this image, a Christian image,
but it's very much about the old religion
of Armenia, Zoroastrianism, paying homage
to the new religion.
So it's a it's a wonderful--
I mean, this really, I think, speaks so well
to how Armenian art-- it's not just about pretty pictures.
But is giving us this immediate, incredibly rich, complicated
window into a past.
And that's another reason that it should be studied.
How are we doing on time?
OK.
So the first chapter, ancient Armenia, second chapter
was on early-Christian Armenia, roughly fourth
to seventh centuries.
And then the third chapter was on what
I call the Age of the Kingdoms.
And so in the seventh century, you have the Islamic conquests.
So Armenia becomes part of the Islamic world
politically until the 9th century.
And in the 9th century, you have a kingdom
that emerges in Armenia, the Bagratid Kingdom.
And they establish their sort of territory
in the north, capital city Ani.
In the south you have another kingdom emerging
called the Artsruni, and they have Van.
Remember we saw Van Fortress?
That's sort of their region.
So this was a period after a couple
of decades where we don't have a whole lot of information.
I'm talking about the period of the Islamic conquests.
Things kind of slow down in terms of artistic production,
we think.
Although, that period is being rewritten now by historians.
It's very interesting.
But in terms of an architectural production
and manuscripts, et cetera, we start
to see a resurgence in the 9th but really more
the 10th century with royal patronage.
And so this is a picture of Ani, the city of Ani,
medieval city of Ani.
How many of you have been to Ani?
All right!
Oh, my gosh, look at this!
All right, great.
So you know where this is.
This is Ani looking from the citadel, which
is the oldest part of the city, down to this kind of peninsula.
And you see there's a church.
See, there's a church right up there,
probably 10th, 11th centuries.
You're not really supposed to go there.
So I hope none of you did.
It's actually kind of off limits.
I got in big trouble for going there.
I got a police car ride back to Kars after that.
[LAUGHS] Anyway.
So this is the cathedral, Ani Cathedral.
And again, what struck me is many of us know Ani.
It's one of the very few deserted medieval cities,
uninhabited medieval cities that there are.
There are some others, but it's one of the very few.
And if you've been there, you know.
This is a staggeringly beautiful site, massive site.
Hard to take good pictures.
I mean, this is a good picture.
But I always look online to find better pictures
than my own pictures of Ani.
But there's very little in English
that's really good enough, to my mind,
on Ani because this architecture needs, I think, careful--
it needs to be carefully communicated.
So this is the cathedral.
It was built 989 to 1001 by the Bagratid King Simbot
and then finished later.
But it is a beautiful example of the architecture
of the Bagratid period in the Age of the Kingdoms.
And I want you to notice really how refined the masonry is
and how carefully designed the exterior is.
It's hard to really do justice to it.
But here I'll show you the inside.
And the plan, too, I think, is really instructive.
So you have this plan of the structure,
which itself is a kind of interesting two-dimensional
work.
I mean, obviously this was made in the modern period.
But it's very symmetrically and carefully laid out.
And in the interior, you can see those profiled piers.
There's no reason to make them.
You don't have to make the building stand up.
But see how carefully they're profiled
and how they, again, kind of create
this very sophisticated, muscular space that
is expressive.
And so I very much wanted to introduce the student
to this aesthetic, to an architectural aesthetic
and then maybe ask, well, why?
Why is there this aesthetic?
Where does it come from.
I mean, one thing I do, again, try
to do in my book is ask questions
and to give students possibilities of maybe pursuing
those questions.
So why do we get this wonderful vertical aesthetic
at this time?
And how does it relate to what we know
about architects at the time?
And in fact, we do know who the architect was.
We know he went to the Hagia Sophia
and repaired the Hagia Sophia in the 10th century.
What did he learn there?
What was it like to go to the Hagia Sophia,
work in the scaffolding on the dome
there and work on this structure?
So what did it mean in terms of ambitions?
So there's so many interesting questions to ask.
And I really did hope that my book would
allow students to do that.
Another piece of what I did in this chapter,
and then I'll talk a little bit more about this at the end
in terms of cultural heritage--
just looking at the time--
is talk about the monuments outside of Ani
but in what is now Eastern Turkey that are abandoned,
in perilous condition, and mostly inaccessible.
So my last trip to the region was in 2016
at the time of the attempted coup.
I haven't been back since.
But I felt like already things were tightening up
in terms of what you could see and what you couldn't see.
This was a monument called [ARMENIAN],, which is again--
the aesthetic, I think you can see,
having seen the cathedral of Ani,
you can see the same kind of aesthetic
here, very, very carefully designed.
Those attached collonnettes creating a kind of web
around the structure.
But you also can notice that it's in terrible condition.
We think it was dynamited from the inside, which would explain
the holes blown out from the outside,
as opposed to like falling rocks.
But it is still a structure of staggering beauty
and staggering in part because of the landscape.
So there is this attention in Armenian architecture
to the setting, the sighting of monuments.
And so how can we understand that?
To what extent can that be read, for example, theologically?
There are lots of interesting questions to ask.
What does it tell us about the relationship between the church
and the land on which it was sitting?
But again, a difficult church to get to.
So one hopes that a church like [ARMENIAN] and many others that
are all around Ani but are on the Turkish side
will be accessible, in part so that they can be stabilized.
This, as you can see, is in very bad condition.
So is Ani Cathedral.
So one other piece here is to raise awareness
about monuments at risk.
And that's what we're dealing with here.
So another thing I did was talk about the Artsruni.
I mentioned the Kingdom of the Artsruni
in the south, where the Van Fortress was.
And one has to talk about this most famous
of churches, anybody?
Akdamar.
Akdamar, thank you.
Akdamar, yeah, which is an amazing church
on an island in Lake Van.
And so it was fun for me to work on this because I could kind
of browse all the wonderful-- there
has been wonderful English-language scholarship
on this monument.
And I should say, again, general remark about the book,
that I chose for this book, to try to stick as much as I could
to English and broadly European language scholarship
so that students who were not proficient in Armenian or
Russian, and those are the two big languages in which
a lot of the scholarship is in, so that they could at least do
some preliminary research.
And then maybe they would want to keep going
but to give them a start so that it wasn't like just a closed
door.
That seemed important.
So Akdamar's a great example where
we have lots of work that's been done on this church.
And I was able to sort of really talk about that
and talk about the scholarship and the scholars
because that's important too.
This book is really a celebration
of the scholarship that's been done
for the past several decades.
And just some details of Akdamar and the relief sculpture,
a very different architectural style, but roughly
the same time as what we saw at Ani.
But here down south they do it differently.
And you have figural scenes, like this wonderful scene
of the whale.
This is the whale vomiting Jonah up.
Jonah's right here.
It's not very whale like.
But if you think about the fact this
is made in the 10th century, that you have trade
of textiles, and you think about textile motifs
at this time in the Islamic world
and in the Byzantine world, there
are these wonderful motifs that really transgress
geographical traditions of manufacture,
the [INAUDIBLE] of this wonderful creature
is part of that, the traveling motif
vocabulary of traveling motifs.
So we can do some wonderful--
I do a lot of wonderful comparisons
with textiles in my classes.
You're probably wondering, well, where's
all the rest of the stuff?
Why is it just architecture and manuscripts
and stone sculpture?
And traditionally Armenian art kind of
is about the big three, churches, manuscripts,
and stone sculpture.
But there's a lot else, and I really
wanted to highlight the other kinds of material cultures
that we have.
So we have textiles.
We have wood sculpture.
We have metalwork.
We have ceramics.
There's so much.
And so I wanted to be as inclusive
as I could be about that.
So a wonderful capital, which is now in The Met Armenia show.
I think this one is in The Met Armenia show.
So a censer, an incense burner, on the right,
with scenes of the Annunciation and the Visitation,
gospel scenes.
And then this wonderful wooden capital
that speaks to connections with the Abbasid world,
most likely, in terms of its designs.
So again, we're looking at art that is connected
to its neighboring traditions.
The other thing I wanted to do in this book
was speak about how these objects would've
been experienced.
And so when we look at an incense burner,
or we look at a lot of the that throne ornament
from the Urartian world, how would somebody have seen them?
We see it in a PowerPoint.
But that's like so many times removed
from how it would have been understood and seen and felt,
experienced by a contemporary viewer.
So thinking about, for example, the movement
of when we go to church.
Or you see an incense burner being swung around,
you're not looking at it statically, like this.
You don't get a chance to do that.
But you smell it.
You hear it because it has bells on it.
And you have more of a vague sense
of how it's working maybe.
So there are a lot of--
I wanted to give--
this is, of course, a piece of what we do as art historians
now.
We think in terms of what's the phenomenology of this object?
So I wanted also to open that methodology up
to an object like this.
But it could be done for many.
So manuscripts-- how are we doing on time?
I'm going to speed up a little bit.
Manuscripts from the Age of the Kingdoms,
we start seeing more and more manuscripts at this time.
It was important for me to say that you
have a multiplicity of styles that emerge in painting.
Sometimes I feel like art historians
and non-art historians sort of are like,
eh, we don't need to talk about style.
Style's boring.
And what is style anyway?
But actually it's really interesting
to try and describe what's going on to create, for example,
the roundness of that neck.
So I love doing that.
I love talking about, for example,
the modulations of tone that lead us to see this as a round
neck and how this work is connected,
for example, to Byzantium traditions of the same period.
And that's very clear.
We can do that.
On the left is an image of the Virgin and Child
from a tenth-century manuscript that also is in, I would say,
the same kind of Byzantium or Byzantinizing style.
But then this is very different.
This is a manuscript that is actually in the States.
It's the oldest Armenian manuscripts
that we have in the States.
It's called the Walters Gospels of the Priest.
And when I show this, sometimes my students laugh at me,
like why are you showing us this when we just
look at those elegant figures?
But what it shows is that there was
room in the Age of the Kingdoms to produce in both ways.
You could connect this to economics as much as you want.
Or you could talk about the training of the artist.
But the fact is this exists.
People looked at it.
It was part of their visual world.
And so why?
Why does it look this way?
I found that to be a very interesting.
And the other piece of what I did in this book was I
paid a lot of attention to texts.
I wanted students to realize even though I'm not giving them
the Armenian scholarship, the footnotes
on the Armenian scholarship, we need
to look at the inscriptions.
We need to see what things say in order
to understand their meaning.
That's important.
So what does this say?
And for those of you maybe who were Hripsime's class,
you can start to read these things.
And this says [ARMENIAN].
It's [ARMENIAN].
It's about the Virgin, what do you say, Hail Mary, right?
Hail Mary, full of grace, right?
It's be joyful, be joyful because you are
going to bear the Christ child.
And then in the colophon to this,
which is the sort of scribal note,
it talks about the [ARMENIAN] of the congregation.
So this was made for the enjoyment, same word,
enjoyment, of the congregation.
So to me, I look at this image.
And it's not-- maybe it's silly.
I don't think so.
But I can see that.
I can see that the joyfulness, maybe even more than I
can see it in this image.
So I think that what's wonderful about this subject
is it sort of forces you to open up a little bit your idea
of what is worthy of study.
And so, yeah, so that's the Age of the Kingdoms.
We should move on now.
Oh, my gosh.
I wonder how we're doing on time.
It's getting late.
We're going to go to Cilicia next.
So one chapter's devoted to a kingdom
that the Armenians started in Southwestern Asia Minor,
just north of Cyprus, in 1199.
And this kingdom's called "Ka-lee-kee-ah" or "Sa-lishah."
And it lasted until 1375.
And it is a kingdom that was famous in terms of material
culture for its fortresses.
You see the example of Anavarza here.
And these fortresses have churches.
And this, you can see, this is actually--
these are photographs by Gertrude Bell.
Did anyone see that Nicole Kidman movie?
Or maybe you know Gertrude Bell by other means.
But anyway, she was a wonderfully important
pioneering traveler, archaeologist,
art historian in the late 19th, early 20th century,
early 20th century?
Yeah.
And she took these photos.
I think this is 1901 or something.
She went to Anavarza, and she talks
about how she was taking pictures there,
and snakes were falling on her head.
She had disrupted a den of vipers or something.
And they're all falling with thuds on her head.
But she took these amazing photos.
But the reason I wanted to show you
this is because this is actually spolia,
reused material from the Byzantine town below Anavarza.
This is reused.
And actually there's an inscription here in Greek
that you can't read now.
But we know it because it was recorded.
And again, it speaks to connecting this with what
scholars are doing now.
There's such interest in reuse and recycling
of materials in the past.
So what were the Armenians, this new kingdom, thinking
when they're gathering up this Greek stuff
and putting it in their own churches?
And not in a haphazard way, they actually
do this very carefully to create this arch.
And in fact, the Greek inscription
still makes sense, even though they've actually taken
out several of the stones.
This is not a semicircle, you can see.
So there's a lot of really, I think,
wonderful work that could be done exploring the material
culture of Cilicia with the question,
how do you create a new kingdom?
What's the material?
What should the expression of that kingdom look like?
And Cilicia is so famous for its manuscripts.
So I'm going to kind of run through this a little bit fast.
This is the famous artist T'oros Roslin,
who, again, I loved doing the work for this
because there's been wonderful scholarship on T'oros Roslin
and Cilician manuscripts.
But T'oros Roslin was obviously well
versed in medieval painting styles from Europe,
as well as Byzantium.
Best of all, though, he really knew his Bible.
So when you look at one of his paintings,
you can't understand it all unless you know all the gospel
texts he's drawing from.
So that door on the right shouldn't make sense
in terms of the logic of the image, right?
It's some sort of mountain setting.
The door has to do with another gospel.
This is the Gospel of Luke.
That's what the texts are.
But the door is from the story of the Incredulity of Thomas,
which comes from another gospel.
And then Zacharias is in the background, the prophet,
holding a text.
That's another text from another part of the Bible.
It's talking about some who doubted.
And so what T'oros Roslin is doing
is bringing together the idea of doubt, of showing wounds
into this single image.
He's doing a kind of visual exegesis himself.
And so it's so interesting, again,
to see how rich this material is, how you can teach with it.
It's not just about sort of visual sophistication.
But it's about and interesting theology as well.
T'oros Roslin is fun to teach with, too, because of the way,
though, he uses the page.
So the Last Judgment-- this is from, again,
from the Walters, which has a wonderful collection
of Armenian manuscripts.
Last Judgment-- and you notice these poor ladies
that are being ejected from the kingdom of heaven.
And they are the foolish virgins who did not light their lamps.
Yes, and T'oros Roslin is telling you this.
He's saying they were so bad, they
are going to be ejected not just from the story,
but from the entire composition.
We're going to push them to the outside.
So you see them.
Here they are over here.
And the apostles are here.
And there's a door here, and they're saying, no, no, no,
you're not coming in.
So Roslin is very sensitive to the page
and to the design of the page and the way he
can use that to make meaning.
We're going to go forward.
So my favorite moment, I would, say in Armenian art
is the late 13th century.
We don't know the names of these artists.
But they are producing some of the most
flamboyant, astonishing painting,
sort of hyper expressive, hyper sophisticated, hyper lavish
that you can imagine.
I can't get enough of this.
And I always show my students this
and say, why do you never see this in an intro to art class?
This is crazy.
This stuff is so beautiful and interesting.
I mean, look at the angel and the way
he's turned in so many different directions.
It's amazing to me.
And then even look, just take an example, the shine
on the knee of this figure.
So again, I guess in the book I was really
trying to ask the reader to look carefully, to look really
carefully with me.
The cover of my book, but also one
of the most brilliant, I would say,
examples of the way the art of Armenian Cilicia
expresses a kind of worldliness, a connectedness
to, in this case, East Asia.
We know this was produced during the Yuan dynasty
when the Mongol Empire reached China.
We can think of all kinds of ways
in which this painting makes sense in terms of connections
with trade routes.
We can think about it in terms of maybe diplomatic gifts
of ceramics and textiles that would
lead to these wonderful creatures that are affronting
the bust of Christ.
But at the same time, we need to be aware of what the text says.
Again, I asked the reader to look at the text with me
because the text is from the reading for the Annunciation
to the Virgin.
And it tells us--
it's a reading from Zachariah that
tells us that all nations shall take refuge in the Lord.
So when you think about it, this is
kind of a wonderful visual representation not just
of trade capital, and not just of kind of cosmopolitan-ness,
but also of the text itself.
And then my favorite, one of the very few times
you get nudes in Armenian art, but here they are.
Maybe you can find them for me, this guy.
Oh, yeah, how are we doing--
were you raising your hand?
Oh, OK.
We've got to finish up.
OK.
And then there's probably Adam and Eve, Eve over there,
Adam much more obvious over on the right.
But I just love that.
I'm going to move forward to we talked about Cilicia
in the 13th century, moving back to greater Armenia, which
we call sort of the traditional homeland,
we have an explosion of building.
Mostly what we have are monasteries,
monastic complexes.
In this chapter, I try to give--
so this is yet another chapter I try
to give the reader a sense of the intellectual environment
of these monasteries, as well as the culture that was
built and sculpted and written.
So that was important to me.
But they're so interesting in terms,
again, of architectural style.
It's a moment where you have a kind of experimentation
and innovation with vaulting techniques, tremendously
complex designs.
You have a fascinating, and really, it
should be studied more, appropriation of Islamic forms,
like this wonderful muqarnas vault. That's that central,
almost looks like, honeycomb vault
in the center of this structure, which is at Ani,
13th century structure at Ani.
But again, you see those massive rib arches.
So the 13th century in greater Armenia is a period of,
I think, like in the 7th century,
it's a period when you start seeing
just new things just emerging.
And in the 13th century, I think it's about connections
with other cultures.
And I should say that in the book
I also try to give the reader, as best I can,
a sense of the history.
And 13th century's very complicated.
Armenia is going-- the number of different spheres of control
over Armenia just change all the time.
But you can see maybe that out of that, you have--
and maybe not in spite of it, maybe
because of that, you have these tremendous visual expressions.
This is from Gandzasar, which is in the southern part
of Armenia.
And you have sculpture that is both in relief, those birds.
You have perforations into the wall.
You have polychrome.
This is kind of this wonderful maroon and silvery circles.
Can't really say enough about it.
And the other piece with the monasteries
is their landscape, the physical setting.
All of these structures are built with tough stone, which
is like a volcanic-- or some of them are basalt.
But they're all volcanic rock.
And if you've been to Armenia and seen the monuments,
you know how they change over the course of the day.
This is Noravank in Syunik in the Republic of Armenia.
And depending on the time of day,
the sun lights up the cliff walls and the church
in this remarkable way.
And it's an interesting observation.
But again, you want to think, how was that understood?
How did that inform the way people saw their monuments,
see the world around them?
You couldn't have a book on Armenian art without khachkars.
So we're getting to the end here.
You couldn't have a book of Armenian art without khachkars,
which are these stones stele that are carved with crosses.
And The Met Armenia show, happily,
has many examples of them.
Again, why?
Why does it look this way?
Incredibly intricate designs.
It was a fun but arduous task to try to describe them,
which I did try to do carefully for each object, describe it.
But this is-- if you start looking at it,
you realize how hard it is to describe.
And it has so many different surfaces.
It's not just one surface.
It's multiple surfaces, designs within designs.
Nothing is, sort of, regular.
And so I very much wanted to speak about it
as a formal phenomenon but also how this helped the mind
to meditate on God because that is what you were meant
to do before these khachkars.
They were sites of commemoration and veneration.
So how does this extremely formal, extremely minute design
help you, lead you in your meditations?
We're going to move a little bit faster, go to early modern.
I know there's so much.
And one wants to talk about it all.
But early modern, it's always hard to say, well,
when does modern happen?
And I follow pretty much the standard division
that art historians have done before me
for Armenian art, which is 17th--
I put it into the early 18th century,
when I think modernity for Armenian art kind of works.
But I don't even like those categories anyway
because they don't really mean anything to me.
But in any event, I had to create chapters.
So have a chapter that's essentially
15th to 18th centuries.
And it deals with things like the merchants.
So you have a new merchant network.
Starting in the 17th century, it's created.
The Armenians create this merchant network.
And in part what that does is it exposes Armenians
to so many different cultures, including European print
culture.
And so we have in Armenian art of the 17th and 18th centuries,
a strong sense or a strong connection
with print, European print culture.
I think you can see that here.
Here's an Armenian Bible made in 1666,
using your Dutch prints, Dutch engravings.
But then you have a painted manuscript
from the late-17th century, so actually probably
around the same time, made around the same time, that
is also drawing from European motifs, for example,
with the lily in the hands of Gabriel,
I believe, too, even in the style of the painting.
Like, there's no nostrils.
It's just there's really strong graphic design that
makes me wonder what would it have looked like
to see a print in the 17th century
if you were a painter, to see this new technology?
Wouldn't that be interesting in a way that maybe it isn't now?
Or would you feel threatened?
OK, it's a pop quiz.
I always do this in all my classes.
One of these is a Cilician manuscript.
The other is a 17th-century manuscript.
So which is the older one, the 13th century one?
You get an A. You get an A. Yeah, it's the one on the left.
The one on the left is the is actually 13th century T'oros
Roslin manuscript.
But it was known to an artist in the 17th century in Sivas,
Sepastia, where my own people are from.
And he, Mikhail, loved T'oros Roslin.
He dedicated his manuscript to T'oros Roslin,
which is an amazing thing in the 17th century for a painter
to do.
And he painted pretty much the same designs,
you can see-- not exactly, but similar.
So it's an interesting moment.
Again, the 17th century's a moment
where you have all these new things happening
with commerce, with politics.
You have the Ottoman Empire and the Safavid Empire.
Politically and economically and culturally things are changing.
But you also have a turning to the past
and looking at the past.
Both Mikhail did that.
And he did it actually-- he was also poet.
And he even looked at some 13th-century Armenian texts,
like [ARMENIAN] or 12th-century texts, [ARMENIAN],,
and wrote about them.
And he was fascinating.
He's not studied really.
He needs to be studied, fascinating guy.
All right, yeah, so you were right about that.
And then we get to this guy.
Sometimes things people work a little differently.
I wanted to include this because it's so different from anything
else.
This is a painter who was working--
itinerant painter working on the eve
of the deportations of Armenians to the Safavid Empire,
where they would set up their merchant colonies.
His name is Hakob Jughayets'i.
And he lived in his own world.
And this is the kind of thing he made.
And his life was not easy.
He wandered around from town to town in the Ottoman Empire,
trying to make money, holding his books with him to sell them
in order to move on.
And this is this was God for him.
This is an image of God.
This is an image of the creation.
And he shows God.
In every page of this manuscript,
God's face gets bigger and bigger.
Why God looks like this, I don't know.
My husband had this idea.
And I should say that I thank him
for all the ways he contributed to this book.
But he had the idea that maybe when your life is that bad,
maybe that's what God looks like to you.
I don't know.
But, yeah, Hakob is in there too.
And now I just I want to-- there's so much we could say.
I am actually going to close now.
By the way, though, I do talk about the new churches
of New Julfa for that are beautiful.
I get a chance to talk about women artists
as well with this wonderful textile
that was produced by a mother-and-daughter team
in 1448.
You can see it at The Met for the next two days.
But they don't mention that it's made by women artists.
We know that from the inscription.
It tells us their names.
And it's a wonderful image to think about
because of who they show.
This is Tiridates, the guy who turned into a boar, right?
This is Saint Gregory, the patron Saint of Armenia.
And this is Hripsime, who Tiridates
tried to have his way with.
And then he ended up--
she ended up preserving her innocence,
but he was so angry he killed her.
But look at how they're shown here, quite peaceably.
Imagine, these are a mother-and-daughter team
embroidering this.
How are they going to show this scene?
Why are they going to show it the way they are?
So lots of interesting things, lots of lots of potential
to work.
I could go on and on.
But I'm going to just close by saying that one thing that
was important to me, and I'll use this
as a kind of ending point, one thing that was important to me
was to convey not just the history of Armenian art,
but also the degree to which we are still
custodians of this culture.
It is still-- these are objects, they're monuments,
they're images that we need to take care of.
And so part of what we need-- and they're also part
of the modern political world.
We can't get away from that.
And there's been a tremendous amount
of scholarship on issues of trauma,
on issues of cultural heritage, on the relation of the genocide
with the monuments in places like Turkey and Azerbaijan.
And to study Armenian architecture and art
from the point of view of as cultural heritage
involves human rights.
It involves law.
It involves economics.
It involves diplomacy.
It involves bureaucracy.
It involves all of these different pieces.
And students can get involved.
There's room for other disciplines
to be talking about these works.
So that's sort of where I wanted to end it
because I thought that really one needs
to talk about the role of some of the modern world in the fate
of these monuments.
So you're just seeing here on the upper left,
I talk about these beautiful khachkars that were
made in Julfa, in Nakhichavan.
They were caught on tape.
The Azeri soldiers are destroying those khachkars.
We have that footage going back to the '90s.
So that whole cemetery has been eradicated.
We have the restoration of Akdamar, which was accompanies
with a lot of controversy.
We have the T'oros Roslin gospels.
That's in The Getty.
That was part of a lawsuit that was issued
by the Armenian Church because the manuscript was dis-bound
and sold during the genocide.
And then last, we have the work at Ani
on one of the churches that's happening right now.
And so there's a lot of--
this material is not just in the past.
It's very much in the present.
So I think I'm done.
[APPLAUSE]
[INAUDIBLE]
So I was very interested when you were taking about
the [INAUDIBLE] churches.
[INAUDIBLE] could you speak a little bit more [INAUDIBLE]
that?
OK.
I don't know if I could speak the semiotics.
But I can talk about it more.
So yes, it's so interesting to me
to think about what the land meant to those
who were working with it.
And when you see these very particular gestures,
putting monuments in particular places, why is it being done?
And I think you do need to do it site by site.
But there's certain things we can say.
For example, the landscape held meaning for medieval Armenians.
Ararat, the place was, of course,
for Armenians ever present on the horizon, as it is today.
But it also was the place from which we know from 5th century
tradition, was a quarry for the first Armenian churches.
So it's part of this tradition.
We know in the earliest history of the conversion Tiridates
goes, and he goes up to Mount Ararat
and quarries on his own back-- after he turns back
into a human, he quarries all these big stones
for the first churches.
So it has this sense, Ararat has this sense
of being a quarry for the sacred architecture of Armenia.
There's a lot of work, too, that could be done with,
that I've done myself with the liturgy,
like a foundation rite.
So how do you make a sacred precinct?
What are the steps to do it?
What do you read from?
What kinds of rituals do you perform?
And that's another thing that I think
needs more study is how do you found a church?
As I mentioned, what do you do?
What you learn is that there was a strong sense of sort
of the biblical, the theological meaning of a site of God,
the creator, of the site as Jerusalem.
I mean these ideas really come through when you do the--
you see what people were reading at the time
when the sites were being made sacred sites.
So it's a very interesting moment.
And the rite is perhaps as old as the fifth century.
So that's another way to think about it.
But I think just thinking in terms of why
is this church where it was?
Like [ARMENIAN],, when you look at that site,
and I won't talk too much about it-- let me just go back.
When you look at it, you can see that the church is built--
sorry, this is annoying.
But the church is built so that you can see the bedrock.
You can see pretty much the raw straited bedrock.
And then you get this kind of roughly processed masonry.
And then you get as more finished masonry as you go up.
And so there's a strong sense of a kind of--
yeah, like a continuum between the land and the built
structure.
And I think that's an important observation too.
It speaks to this idea of Ararat as not just a land form,
but as kind of part of that sacred world.
And that speaks, too, to the fact that Armenians were
performing veneration outside.
There was not a kind of inside--
as well as inside.
But there wasn't a sense of kind of
interior sacred, exterior secular, at least
I don't read it that way.
Yes, please.
It just seems so astounding that something
that [INAUDIBLE] precipice.
Yeah.
So I should say that I think there has been more falling.
When I look at old photographs, you can see there's been some,
I guess erosion [INAUDIBLE].
I don't know.
But in any event, nevertheless, it's
still very much-- it would have been dramatic even when it
was built in the 11th century.
And that's quite common.
Common isn't a great word.
But there's a beautiful example that speaks to the semiotics,
again, of a monastery in the Republic called Harichavank.
And at Harichavank, it's built right on a gorge.
And what's so wonderful about that is that in the church,
there's a tympanum, and it shows the wise
and the foolish virgins, so the story we just talked about.
And Christ is sort of expelling the foolish virgins.
And the direction he's expelling them in,
it would be just going right over the gorge.
So there's this connection between the site
and the imagery, creating this kind of logic of the site.
But that's what's actually wonderful, too,
about working on Armenian architecture.
You go to these staggeringly beautiful places.
I mean, most of the monuments are just so carefully situated.
[INAUDIBLE] eroding?
Well, yeah, it looks like--
I don't know if eroding is the right word.
I feel like I want to be a geologist to answer that.
But I'm sure that it is maybe slowly.
Unfortunately, this is one of those sites that hasn't always
been easy to get to.
It was actually off limits for many years.
So how much we can say about tracking its demise
is hard to do.
But it is a worry because that's really close to the edge
right now.
Yeah.
And it's also behind you, behind is another big cliff.
So there are rocks coming down from up above too.
This isn't too far from Ani.
Yes, please.
Could you talk about your process
of studying these, going to sites?
Oh, yeah.
It's a great question.
Yeah, it's a great question.
It's something I've learned over the years.
I had some good advice when I when
I started to do some fieldwork, like
take a picture of every facade.
It's always the things that you don't
take pictures of or record that are the things that you
want at the end.
But I think it also depends on what it's for,
what I'm aiming to do.
But I'll give you one dramatic example.
When I got to the Church of Mren, which is on-- it's
in the military zone.
It's on the Turkish side in the military zone.
And I knew I only had a certain amount of time there.
I knew that the soldiers were watching
because there's a big hill up above where they could see.
There's a watch post, I think it's called.
So I knew that I had to be really, really,
really careful and fast and get everything I wanted.
So I actually made a list beforehand.
OK, I want this.
I want this.
I want this.
I'd never been there before because it was not
easy to get to.
But I wanted to make sure that I did everything I needed to.
So basics would be you get every facade,
and you get the interior as much as you can.
But the fun parts are usually the surprises.
So when I got to Mren, and I actually
spent a fair amount of time in the church
because I didn't want to be seen,
that's when I started to realize, oh, my god,
there's so much more painting in the apse than I thought.
This church is covered in painting.
And I'd never seen these paintings before.
All of a sudden, I'm seeing hands.
That helps you.
Then you think, oh, next time I go to a church,
I'm going to look for the painting.
And what's so amazing is now I see so much more than I did.
It's interesting in the case of Armenian art.
If you're not looking, you may not see it.
But once you start to look, now I go to the churches at Ani.
So many of them are painted.
But they're not published.
Or not a lot of them are published.
There's much more that isn't.
So it's kind of a round about.
But when I first started I tried to be as sort of regimented
as possible.
And now I'm starting a new book.
And I'm going to go back to that,
sort of be really disciplined about just
taking every side, every corner, because you never know.
You need a good camera, too.
Yes, please.
[INAUDIBLE]
The [INAUDIBLE],, you said that is being renovated.
It had been, yeah.
I was last there in 2004, I think.
Oh.
So is it since then?
Because it looks really beautifully--
sort of yellow and sparkling.
Yeah.
I don't know if inside there was a problem.
Yeah, so the renovations, they were in the early 2000s.
I don't know if it was before or after you went.
They renovated.
They did a lot--
they built some outbuildings in a very annoying way,
which mean that you can almost not get
good pictures of the astonishing sculptures on the west facade.
You have to stand on like this air conditioning unit
to do it pretty much.
But the other thing they did, which was more problematic,
was they cleaned the interior painting program.
And in doing so, they took off the outermost layers
of the wall painting so that you get now very strong outlines.
You're getting really the-- what's the word,
the thing they put down first that--
but, yeah.
You're not getting-- we've lost some things there.
It was a problem, too, because it was sort of seen
by some as a publicity stunt, too, because they did it,
and then they performed a [ARMENIAN],,
a Eucharist, Armenian Eucharist there.
It's an example that people are definitely ambivalent about,
I would say, in the Armenian community.
So that's another thing.
There's this sense that things are happening,
and [ARMENIAN], Ani.
And everybody's watching.
And now you can.
And so it's important for us to be educated as to what's good
and what isn't good, because there is good restoration.
The [ARMENIAN],, the church I showed you
that's half there in the scaffolding, that's good.
I think they're doing an excellent job with that.
But I think we need to know.
We need to be sort of informed as to what's appropriate,
what isn't appropriate.
Are you working with [INAUDIBLE]??
Do you work with a Ministry of Culture from Turkey?
Yeah.
Yeah.
You have to.
So they own all the monuments.
And so everything has to be done through them.
But my work has been done through the World Monuments
Fund.
And you need to have a kind of prestigious, usually
like an American-- although, I don't know anymore.
It used to be like, earlier, that you
had work with a prestigious organization
like WMF or UNESCO or [INAUDIBLE],,
and they would be the go-between between the specialists,
the knowledgeable specialists and then the money,
because the money comes from yet somewhere else.
And then they would also be connected to the Ministry
of Culture and Tourism.
So that would be a way to kind of keep it all organized,
to say the least.
It's complicated, which, again, is an interesting learning
experience for students to see how complicated this can get.
For example, what kinds of materials do you use?
What's the best way to join one stone to the other?
This is a church that's built in the 11th century.
But it's having problems.
It's a 19-sided building that's half there
with frescoes on the inside.
It's complicated.
So it was wonderful to see.
It was wonderful to see all these different experts working
together on it.
And Armenian specialists, seismologists, as well,
engineers, everybody trying to figure out what can we
do for this building.
I mean, so I think that's good.
[INAUDIBLE],, thank you very much.
[APPLAUSE]
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